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The New York region is very unwieldy. One traffic detour on a Saturday afternoon can wreck your entire life. Manhattan-bound traffic over the Brooklyn Bridge has been diverted to the Manhattan Bridge over the weekends so you're talking about 45 minutes to an hour to get to the Holland Tunnel on a Saturday afternoon.
I usually take the Lincoln or Holland tunnels to Manhattan, the George Washington and RFK triborough bridges on the way to Queens, the Outerbridge crossing to Staten Island and the Verrazano–Narrows Bridge to Brooklyn.
I agree the traffic can get bad at times, but it looks like my iPhone GPS can detect the routes with a little better traffic, so I keep it handy. The roads in NYC wreak havoc with your tires though.
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I think you mean "connecting the two physically." I don't know how you can possibly make the argument that there's not much connecting them culturally. Not based non any facts anyway. Do they not have water ice, hoagies and soft pretzels in Wilmington?
I don't think the amount of development or lack thereof means there's a lack of cohesion. North Jersey is more built up than South Jersey, but what does that have to do with culture or the degree of inter-jurisidictional cooperation?
No, I meant culturally, as well as physically. In the same vein that people can argue Baltimore and D.C. as culturally distinct, I will argue DE and NJ. For one, DE is less Italian than NJ. NJ and DE also don't have as much historical connections as DE and PA (DE was once part of PA) and it shows. I'm not saying there AREN'T any connections, but it's noticeably the weakest relationship in the Delaware Valley. Definitely the weakest relationship in this entire comparison, hence the Delaware Valley's low vote total.
And physically, development has a lot to due with cohesion. I don't see how you can argue this for the DMV (it's easily traversed and well connected with no tolls) but downplay this for DE and NJ. DE to PA is contiguous development up 202. PA to NJ is contiguous over the Delaware river. But DE to NJ is noticeably not over the Memorial bridge. No one in DE goes over the bridge to Salem or the other exit 1/2 towns for shopping or leisure. DE to NJ and vice versa is transit more than "closeness".
To tackle your question, North Jersey is more integrated with NYC than South Jersey is to Philadelphia because it's better connected. There's simply more rail, road and other connections up North than down South. Not saying South Jersey isn't intertwined with Philly (it is), but not to the degree NNJ is with NYC. Nowhere in this country is. There's really no equivalent to the Port Authority anywhere in this country, not even D.C.
To tackle your question, North Jersey is more integrated with NYC than South Jersey is to Philadelphia because it's better connected. There's simply more rail, road and other connections up North than down South. Not saying South Jersey isn't intertwined with Philly (it is), but not to the degree NNJ is with NYC. Nowhere in this country is. There's really no equivalent to the Port Authority anywhere in this country, not even D.C.
Not to suggest that it has the same breadth/magnitude of the Port Authority (although why would it, considering NYC is the largest metro in the US, let alone the one with the most tri-state commerce), but it's not like that model is unprecedented elsewhere.
The Delaware River Port Authority (DRPA) has a pretty analogous intergovernmental relationship overseeing infrastructure between Southeastern PA and Southern NJ. It runs PATCO and handles maintenance of all the major Delaware River bridges.
No, I meant culturally, as well as physically. In the same vein that people can argue Baltimore and D.C. as culturally distinct, I will argue DE and NJ. For one, DE is less Italian than NJ. NJ and DE also don't have as much historical connections as DE and PA (DE was once part of PA) and it shows. I'm not saying there AREN'T any connections, but it's noticeably the weakest relationship in the Delaware Valley. Definitely the weakest relationship in this entire comparison, hence the Delaware Valley's low vote total.
You're grasping at straws here. Baltimore and DC are distinct because they are distinct. Baltimore has its own sports teams, its own accent, its own foods, its own commuting patterns, cultural staples, etc. Northern Delaware doesn't. It's not even close to being the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder
And physically, development has a lot to due with cohesion. I don't see how you can argue this for the DMV (it's easily traversed and well connected with no tolls) but downplay this for DE and NJ. DE to PA is contiguous development up 202. PA to NJ is contiguous over the Delaware river. But DE to NJ is noticeably not over the Memorial bridge. No one in DE goes over the bridge to Salem or the other exit 1/2 towns for shopping or leisure. DE to NJ and vice versa is transit more than "closeness".
And there's absolutely no physical connection between New Jersey and Connecticut. That's not a trip that's easily traversed with no tolls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder
To tackle your question, North Jersey is more integrated with NYC than South Jersey is to Philadelphia because it's better connected. There's simply more rail, road and other connections up North than down South. Not saying South Jersey isn't intertwined with Philly (it is), but not to the degree NNJ is with NYC. Nowhere in this country is. There's really no equivalent to the Port Authority anywhere in this country, not even D.C.
"Cohesion," in my mind, is not only a matter of counting up the number of bridges. Being easier to navigate is a big part of it but it isn't the only thing.
North Jersey, in some ways, is a bit of its own world. That's why the Star-Ledger has a huge circulation whereas there's no equivalent of that in South Jersey or the DC suburbs. Tony Soprano, I'm sure, would consider himself a Jersey guy first and foremost whereas a South Jersey guy would probably think of himself more as a Philly guy.
I think the relationship between Philly-NJ and NYC-NJ is about the same with North Jersey probably having a slightly more independent identity from NYC than SJ does from Philly. I also think Connecticut and Delaware play about the same role.
Not to suggest that it has the same breadth/magnitude of the Port Authority (although why would it, considering NYC is the largest metro in the US, let alone the one with the most tri-state commerce), but it's not like that model is unprecedented elsewhere.
The Delaware River Port Authority (DRPA) has a pretty analogous intergovernmental relationship overseeing infrastructure between Southeastern PA and Southern NJ. It runs PATCO and handles maintenance of all the major Delaware River bridges.
Yeah, that's why I said "it is bigger" was not a sufficient answer. Everything in New York is bigger. "Bigger" doesn't make the relationships among these jurisdictions any different.
Overall, I'd say that residents of both Tri-State areas (NYC and Philly) have about the same interaction with and exposure to the different jurisdictions in their respective regions. If you grew up in Philly, then you probably rarely went to Delaware, and if you grew up in Brooklyn or Queens, then you probably went to Connecticut even less than Philly people go to Delaware. Jersey is about the same, imo.
DC would easily be the most cohesive of the three considering that you can walk across the Key Bridge from Georgetown to Rosslyn or across Eastern Avenue from Silver Spring to DC. Crossing certain sections of the Potomac feels more like going from Center City to University City.
When did you live in Manhattan? There is no tax on clothing items under $110 in New York, which technically makes shopping cheaper on this side of the bridge. Even if you were to pay the full NYC/NYS tax rate, you would only pay $8.75 more than you would in Jersey. Those cost savings would be easily wiped out by the cost of tolls, fuel or transit. Not to mention the valuable time that would be lost just getting to New Jersey.
I left the city in '99. I'm not sure when they instituted this $110 deal, but I don't remember it existing back then.
I think you and I may have different ideas about what "clothes shopping" is. I don't think it is a stretch to say that many Manhattanites buy clothing items that cost over $110. A cheap sweater costs more than that. A pair of pants will easily cost more than that. I pay more than that for a mens bathing suit! And that $8.75 is only on a minor purchase. I also don't think it is a stretch to say that Manhattanites will spend $2k-$4k clothes shopping. Heck, 1 good suit can easily cost you that. Now you are talking about hundreds of extra dollars just in taxes alone, on top the premium you are often paying on the clothes in NYC
I usually take the Lincoln or Holland tunnels to Manhattan, the George Washington and RFK triborough bridges on the way to Queens, the Outerbridge crossing to Staten Island and the Verrazano–Narrows Bridge to Brooklyn.
Since when did you start going to Brooklyn and Queens? About a year ago, you said that you had never been to any part of NYC outside of Manhattan. What prompted this new found sense of exploration?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer
I agree the traffic can get bad at times, but it looks like my iPhone GPS can detect the routes with a little better traffic, so I keep it handy. The roads in NYC wreak havoc with your tires though.
There is no "quick" way to New Jersey. It's not like there are these forgotten little links sort of like the Chain Bridge between DC and Arlington. There is no way around going directly into the teeth of the monster.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 09-23-2015 at 11:20 AM..
I think you and I may have different ideas about what "clothes shopping" is. I don't think it is a stretch to say that many Manhattanites buy clothing items that cost over $110. A cheap sweater costs more than that. A pair of pants will easily cost more than that. I pay more than that for a mens bathing suit! And that $8.75 is only on a minor purchase. I also don't think it is a stretch to say that Manhattanites will spend $2k-$4k clothes shopping. Heck, 1 good suit can easily cost you that. Now you are talking about hundreds of extra dollars just in taxes alone, on top the premium you are often paying on the clothes in NYC
If you're regularly paying over $110 for an item of clothing, then you're doing it wrong. This is really no different than people who figure $$$ means a faster car.
Sure, there are items that cost more than $110, but the average person doesn't buy that many articles of clothing that cost more than that. Not even here. If you buy 10 $100 shirts in NYC, then you pay $1,000, point blank. In New Jersey, you'd have to pay $70 in taxes. So I don't see how you would possibly come out ahead unless literally every single thing you buy costs more than $110. Even then, the difference in the sales tax is not significant and does not economically justify paying for exorbitantly high tolls and gasoline. There's also the time lost in making that trip.
But hey, I'm sure there are people who cross the George Washington Bridge for a slice of pizza too. Doesn't make much sense but I'm sure somebody does it.
BTW, the median earnings for a non-Hispanic White person living in Manhattan is $70,224. You probably can't afford to buy too many $110 shirts with those earnings.
Last edited by BajanYankee; 09-23-2015 at 11:31 AM..
If you're regularly paying over $110 for an item of clothing, then you're doing it wrong. This is really no different than people who figure $$$ means a faster car.
Sure, there are items that cost more than $110, but the average person doesn't buy that many articles of clothing that cost more than that. Not even here. If you buy 10 $100 shirts in NYC, then you pay $1,000, point blank. In New Jersey, you'd have to pay $70 in taxes. So I don't see how you would possibly come out ahead unless literally every single thing you buy costs more than $110. Even then, the difference in the sales tax is not significant and does not economically justify paying for exorbitantly high tolls and gasoline. There's also the time lost in making that trip.
But hey, I'm sure there are people who cross the George Washington Bridge for a slice of pizza too. Doesn't make much sense but I'm sure somebody does it.
No. In NJ there is zero sales tax on clothes. But I think you are looking at it from a point of view from someone in Brooklyn. I have no reason to go to Brooklyn either. But most people I know in Manhattan come from either NJ, Westchester, or Long Island. And they are going back to those places frequently anyway for family reasons. In the case of NJ, they are just saving their shopping for when they are back in NJ anyway, so it's not like there is an extra toll. Again, as to clothes shopping (as well as locale), I just think that you and I are in two different worlds. Not saying one is better or worse than the other, but I don't pretend to know your world better than you do.
Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 09-23-2015 at 11:45 AM..
Not to suggest that it has the same breadth/magnitude of the Port Authority (although why would it, considering NYC is the largest metro in the US, let alone the one with the most tri-state commerce), but it's not like that model is unprecedented elsewhere.
The Delaware River Port Authority (DRPA) has a pretty analogous intergovernmental relationship overseeing infrastructure between Southeastern PA and Southern NJ. It runs PATCO and handles maintenance of all the major Delaware River bridges.
Its not just the largess, but also the scope of powers as well. The Port Authority of NY and NJ doesn't just run ports and bridges and some cross-state rail like the DRPA. They also run all 5 airports, including all the rail to the airports, even if the rail doesn't even cross the two states (JFK AirTrain is exclusively in NYC city limits, its run by Port Authority, not the NYC MTA for example.) They also operate buses and they develop real estate, they are the ones building the World Trade Center site for example. Thats like DRPA building Comcast tower in Philly...
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