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By classically urban, I'm referring to things like the historic urban fabric, structural density, residential density, etc. Richmond has more elements of "old school" urbanism in place than Atlanta, considering their sizes.
That's very interesting and it's completely the opposite for me. Richmond, to me, is the most urban city in VA and feels larger than Norfolk (although HR as a whole is obviously larger). I don't understand your characterization of Richmond at all, especially compared to Norfolk. I could understand if you were comparing Philly and Richmond or even Baltimore and Richmond, but Richmond feeling "small-town countryish" and like "one big suburb" compared to Norfolk is just mind-boggling.
To me and maybe this was just because of the people I hung out with while in Richmond but if felt "small-town country-ish" because everyone knew everyone. The bars we went to, it was the same people... it reminded me of a small-town, a lot of them who lived in Richmond grew up right outside Richmond so it was a everyone-knows-everyone sort of thing. Somewhere like DC or any city really, that's like very rare.
That's not to say Richmond isn't urban because it definitely is (the fan district for example) but even with that, I didn't get an overwhelming city vibe like you do in Norfolk.
To me and maybe this was just because of the people I hung out with while in Richmond but if felt "small-town country-ish" because everyone knew everyone. The bars we went to, it was the same people... it reminded me of a small-town, a lot of them who lived in Richmond grew up right outside Richmond so it was a everyone-knows-everyone sort of thing. Somewhere like DC or any city really, that's like very rare.
That's not to say Richmond isn't urban because it definitely is (the fan district for example) but even with that, I didn't get an overwhelming city vibe like you do in Norfolk.
Well I understand that Norfolk is certainly more transient due to the very large military presence, but it didn't really give me an "overwhelming city vibe" either, although I haven't visited since the region got light rail which adds to a city-like feel.
Although I won't say it's an "everyone knows everyone" type thing, Philly is also a very native-heavy city although it still feels very much like a city. So I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.
Norfolk is not an overwhelming city vibe at all. In fact Downtown is rather small in comparison to other cities. To me an overwhelming city vibe is Detroit, Chicago, etc. Maybe even Columbus, OH. I know cities larger than Norfolk, with larger downtown areas, and larger urban cores, like Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and of course Atlanta if you throw in Midtown and Buckhead. A nice vibe, but I would not say that any of those cities are overwhelming. IDK, to overwhelm me it has to be on a level like Los Angeles, NYC, maybe Houston, TX. I don't even know if DC is overwhelming. If you take the way that the roads are connected, between VA, MD, and DC, it is somewhat overwhelming in that respect, considering how long it goes for and how long it takes to drive through that area but outside of that walking around it is not overwhelming at all. Fascinating, if you've never been there but not overwhelming.
For Norfolk to be overwhelming the skyline would have to go out all the way into Little Creek. At least Larchmont. If Norfolk were the real city that everyone swears that it is, Ghent would have its own skyline. Now that would be impressive. But, given the economic challenges that city faces I doubt we'll ever see that in our lifetime. In fact I'd wager that Virginia Beach will be able to create that type of atmosphere before Norfolk does. And I live in Norfolk, its urban, but its just not, urban. But it is urban for Hampton Roads, FWIW. IDK how to explain it Mutiny77 knows what I am talking about.
Obviously it's relative, but neither Norfolk or Richmond give me anything close to an "overwhelming city vibe." They are too small. At the least, a city would have to anchor a top 15 metro to give me that vibe.
Obviously it's relative, but neither Norfolk or Richmond give me anything close to an "overwhelming city vibe." They are too small. At the least, a city would have to anchor a top 15 metro to give me that vibe.
I've heard Richmond called "small", and I've heard Richmond called "country", but I've never heard anyone ever call it small and country in comparison to Norfolk. Lol that's another first I'd only hear on this site...
One of the most noticeable differences between Norfolk and Richmond is the energies of the cities themselves. Richmond has a much faster pace, it's energy is kinetic and funky and is just a busier city overall. Norfolk has small pockets of this, but as others have noted, Norfolk's downtown is considerably, and the city is just sleepy by comparison. It has the light rail, which is definitely an attribute, but that light rail has effectively zero influence on the energy and pace of Norfolk. Norfolk has other attributes, sure, but in no way does it feel like a larger city than Richmond, or even offer the level of urban experience that Richmond does...
As far as the comparison to Atlanta, I lived in Atlanta (Gwinnett) from Fall 2013 to Spring 2015. Atlanta is more urban in the sense that all huge cities are more urban--only eight metropolises are larger than the A. Clearly, the abundance of skyscrapers alone gives it a more urban feel, if we're looking from that angle. But as @mutiny said, aesthetically, Richmond is the more urban city, even on a neighborhood-to-neighborhood comparison. Most of Atlanta's neighborhoods outside of Midtown/Downtown/Buckhead (not all) are very suburban and/or sleepy by comparison, as Richmond has much more pedestrian traffic and street activity within its neighborhoods...
Lastly, I'd like to say that I don't define "overwhelming city vibe" as having to be a large city. Providence is only the 38th-largest city in the country and I absolutely felt like I was in a city, a real, urban, true-to-form city. Not to beat the horse, but Atlanta was overall unimpressive to me and didn't give me an overall city vibe, and its the 9th largest city. Even within Atlanta's core neighborhoods, it is pretty suburban, and by the time you hit the actual suburbs (Gwinnett, Cobb, etc), it's not even worth talking about. I lived off the Buford Highway, one of the more well-known avenues in the metro, and that entire stretch, all the way from the city to Hall, is strip mall after chain after mall after chain after apartments after strip mall after chain. It is rather ethnically diverse, but is not really urban, although it is comparatively urban to areas within Atlanta city (Ponce, Bankhead, etc). Atlanta definitely feels big; it has an overwhelming feeling of a large city, no doubt, but not an overwhelming feeling of an urban city...
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Of course, the problem here is the inconsistency with which we define "large" and "small". Richmond is the 98th largest city, and 45th largest metro in the nation. More people in the country live in smaller cities and metros than either Norfolk or Richmond. More people can come to Richmond and Norfolk and feel like they are in a big city than the reverse, because Richmond and Norfolk are bigger than most cities....
I've heard Richmond called "small", and I've heard Richmond called "country", but I've never heard anyone ever call it small and country in comparison to Norfolk. Lol that's another first I'd only hear on this site...
One of the most noticeable differences between Norfolk and Richmond is the energies of the cities themselves. Richmond has a much faster pace, it's energy is kinetic and funky and is just a busier city overall. Norfolk has small pockets of this, but as others have noted, Norfolk's downtown is considerably, and the city is just sleepy by comparison. It has the light rail, which is definitely an attribute, but that light rail has effectively zero influence on the energy and pace of Norfolk. Norfolk has other attributes, sure, but in no way does it feel like a larger city than Richmond, or even offer the level of urban experience that Richmond does...
As far as the comparison to Atlanta, I lived in Atlanta (Gwinnett) from Fall 2013 to Spring 2015. Atlanta is more urban in the sense that all huge cities are more urban--only eight metropolises are larger than the A. Clearly, the abundance of skyscrapers alone gives it a more urban feel, if we're looking from that angle. But as @mutiny said, aesthetically, Richmond is the more urban city, even on a neighborhood-to-neighborhood comparison. Most of Atlanta's neighborhoods outside of Midtown/Downtown/Buckhead (not all) are very suburban and/or sleepy by comparison, as Richmond has much more pedestrian traffic and street activity within its neighborhoods...
Lastly, I'd like to say that I don't define "overwhelming city vibe" as having to be a large city. Providence is only the 38th-largest city in the country and I absolutely felt like I was in a city, a real, urban, true-to-form city. Not to beat the horse, but Atlanta was overall unimpressive to me and didn't give me an overall city vibe, and its the 9th largest city. Even within Atlanta's core neighborhoods, it is pretty suburban, and by the time you hit the actual suburbs (Gwinnett, Cobb, etc), it's not even worth talking about. I lived off the Buford Highway, one of the more well-known avenues in the metro, and that entire stretch, all the way from the city to Hall, is strip mall after chain after mall after chain after apartments after strip mall after chain. It is rather ethnically diverse, but is not really urban, although it is comparatively urban to areas within Atlanta city (Ponce, Bankhead, etc). Atlanta definitely feels big; it has an overwhelming feeling of a large city, no doubt, but not an overwhelming feeling of an urban city...
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Of course, the problem here is the inconsistency with which we define "large" and "small". Richmond is the 98th largest city, and 45th largest metro in the nation. More people in the country live in smaller cities and metros than either Norfolk or Richmond. More people can come to Richmond and Norfolk and feel like they are in a big city than the reverse, because Richmond and Norfolk are bigger than most cities....
Gwinnet is really suburban. But I see what you're saying. A lot of large cities have a slow pace and do not have the energy of a truly urban place. To me Columbus, OH is such a place. From what you're saying, like you mentioned Providence it could be that when a state has one principal city more often than not it will offer that truly urban experience. And consider that Richmond was THE city in Virginia until the late twentieth century when HR and NOVA became more urban it makes sense that it would offer an urban experience second to none.
Gwinnet is really suburban. But I see what you're saying. A lot of large cities have a slow pace and do not have the energy of a truly urban place. To me Columbus, OH is such a place. From what you're saying, like you mentioned Providence it could be that when a state has one principal city more often than not it will offer that truly urban experience. And consider that Richmond was THE city in Virginia until the late twentieth century when HR and NOVA became more urban it makes sense that it would offer an urban experience second to none.
Atlanta has the energy of a large city. But I'll never forget the first time I went to the famed Little Five Points or Atlantic Station. Those are two of the premier neighborhoods in Atlanta and neither were impressive in their urbanity (I enjoyed both, however)...
Atlanta has the energy of a large city. But I'll never forget the first time I went to the famed Little Five Points or Atlantic Station. Those are two of the premier neighborhoods in Atlanta and neither were impressive in their urbanity (I enjoyed both, however)...
Well Atlantic Station is a brownfield New Urbanist development so it really shouldn't be impressive from an urban standpoint (in the classical sense). L5P isn't large so I get that it's not impressive in that sense, but Atlanta does well when it comes to having a plethora of older streetcar suburban commercial districts--L5P, Va-Hi, Grant Park, Inman Park, East Atlanta Village, Edgewood, etc.--that are within the core of the city.
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