Cincinnati vs St Louis vs Cleveland and vs Detroit (living, cost, state)

[ram2]

Originally Posted by MS313

.The passenger count isn't the problem.

Sure it is. Look at how sparsely used the current PT system is.

[usernameunavailable]

Originally Posted by MS313

Well, it's not all THAT bad. The PT will still get you around the entire urban area (3 counties), just not as fast as a train would. I know plenty of people who have to depend on it. If you live close to your job and near a few attractions you like, you'll be alright. For example, most people who live and work in or near downtown hardly need a car.

And I agree, the woodward light rail is a good start, but so was the people mover. The people mover was supposed to be expanded a long time ago and today it's still going in one huge circle. The woodward light rail was originally planned to go out to 8 mile but our short sited leaders (Gov Snyder) decided rapid buses would be a better option over light rail lol. It took private dollars to get this project going again which now only goes a few miles to the New Center area but has plans to be expanded. Hopefully when new leaders get into office, they will take more pride in infrastructure and make sure this doesn't end up like another people mover. But this is Michigan so I won't hold my breath, if Detroit was in any other state we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Surprisingly, Michigan funds their PT better than Ohio. Maybe it is just the fact that DET is the motor city, because it seems like the entire state is opposed to any sort of rail system.

[Cleverfield]

Originally Posted by MS313

Yeah, Detroit had streetcars once, then they scrapped it. They cut back on PT when automobiles started to get more and more popular causing even more people to buy cars. But that was a different time. Today, Detroit is alot more spread out over alot more land area and Detroit can support a much better transit system then it currently has. The passenger count isn't the problem.

Cleveland did the same thing actually; we scrapped our streetcars (actually shipped them to Toronto) in favor of gas powered busses, at the behest of the motor vehicle lobbyists. Fortunately, we had the Van Sweringen brothers, who developed Shaker Heights and built a light rail line to entice wealthy people to move to what was then considered the boonies. Later on, the city converted an old train line to heavy rail, meandering through the East and West sides, and to the airport. Then in the 90s, a light rail extension was built through the flats, and to the Rock Hall. They're talking about extending the heavy rail to the Cuyahoga/Lake County line, but they don't have the money to do it. By the way, how did Detroit get the money to build its rail line?

[usroute10]

Sad days (READ THIS LINK TO SEE WHAT OBSTRUCTIONS THE CITY OF DETROIT WAS DEALING WITH)

Construction of Detroit Subway delayed, The Michigan Daily, May 27th, 1981

[U146]

St. Louis' light rail system, The Metrolink, is pretty decent. It wasn't yet built when I was a little kid in the early 90s...they first built a line extending from Shiloh, Illinois near Scott Air Force Base all the way to the airport on the Missouri side. Then in the late 90s to mid 2000s they built the second line which runs concurrently with the first line from Fairview Heights, Illinois to Forest Park station on the Missouri side, then extends to the inner ring suburbs of Clayton, Richmond Heights, Maplewood, and Shrewsbury.

[usroute10]

More from the local press showing great opposition to the Detroit Subway Plan of the late 70's/early 80's

http://www.mintpressnews.com/MyMPN/c...on-800x517.jpg

A 1980 cartoon in the Oakland Press depicting Detroit Mayor Coleman Young tying a white woman labeled “Oakland County taxpayers” to the tracks of a proposed metro Detroit subway.


Comments from readers of the Oakland Press (a suburban newspaper) in 1980; a lot of vitriol and ignorance spewed

[Republic of Michigan]

Originally Posted by usernameunavailable

Surprisingly, Michigan funds their PT better than Ohio. Maybe it is just the fact that DET is the motor city, because it seems like the entire state is opposed to any sort of rail system.

Ann Arbor is proposing a billion $ light rail within the city limits. In addition, there is talk about a high speed rail between Ann Arbor to Traverse City. Detroit is building a light rail system. Attitudes have dramatically shifted here.

[MS313]

Originally Posted by ram2

Sure it is. Look at how sparsely used the current PT system is.

How is it sparsely used? Some of the routes have been so packed that they put articulated buses on the routes. And PT was sort of at the point where you only use it if you have to. It's just now starting to get better in the past few years, before then it was very unpredictable when the outdated buses would even come, nobody wants to deal with that if they don't have to. Especially if they have a job. I'm sure more will use it now that they are getting new buses, making sure they're on time, and just getting their sh*t together in general.

Now rail lines are a different story than buses anyway, more people are willing to use rail over buses because buses are alot slower than a car since it has to sit in traffic with everyone else and make frequent stops. But with some of the highest car insurance rates in the nation, you think people wouldn't use rail in Detroit if it wasn't available?

Surprisingly, Michigan funds their PT better than Ohio. Maybe it is just the fact that DET is the motor city, because it seems like the entire state is opposed to any sort of rail system.

Really? and yea... that's pretty much what it is imo.

"usroute10": That link is so depressing man lol smh. Maybe if Michigan's own Gerald Ford was president a little bit longer huh? And the governor said "the subway system is not dead"... I think he knew better lol.

Cleveland did the same thing actually; we scrapped our streetcars (actually shipped them to Toronto) in favor of gas powered busses, at the behest of the motor vehicle lobbyists. Fortunately, we had the Van Sweringen brothers, who developed Shaker Heights and built a light rail line to entice wealthy people to move to what was then considered the boonies. Later on, the city converted an old train line to heavy rail, meandering through the East and West sides, and to the airport. Then in the 90s, a light rail extension was built through the flats, and to the Rock Hall. They're talking about extending the heavy rail to the Cuyahoga/Lake County line, but they don't have the money to do it. By the way, how did Detroit get the money to build its rail line?

Basically with help from some of the businesses, institutions, and local millionaires who's investments were looking forward to that light rail. Dan Gilbert (Cleveland Cavaliers owner) is one of them. That guy owns half of Woodward in downtown himself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-1_Rail_Line

[usernameunavailable]

Originally Posted by MS313

How is it sparsely used? Some of the routes have been so packed that they put articulated buses on the routes. And PT was sort of at the point where you only use it if you have to. It's just now starting to get better in the past few years, before then it was very unpredictable when the outdated buses would even come, nobody wants to deal with that if they don't have to. Especially if they have a job. I'm sure more will use it now that they are getting new buses, making sure they're on time, and just getting their sh*t together in general.

Now rail lines are a different story than buses anyway, more people are willing to use rail over buses because buses are alot slower than a car since it has to sit in traffic with everyone else and make frequent stops. But with some of the highest car insurance rates in the nation, you think people wouldn't use rail in Detroit if it wasn't available?


Really? and yea... that's pretty much what it is imo.

"usroute10": That link is so depressing man lol smh. Maybe if Michigan's own Gerald Ford was president a little bit longer huh? And the governor said "the subway system is not dead"... I think he knew better lol.


Basically with help from some of the businesses, institutions, and local millionaires who's investments were looking forward to that light rail. Dan Gilbert (Cleveland Cavaliers owner) is one of them. That guy owns half of Woodward in downtown himself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-1_Rail_Line

Alabama $453,600 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0
Alaska $1,128,607 $0 $0 $59,850,000 $86,814,875 $80,636,693
Arizona $382,961 $445,000 $329,096 $20,068,000 $11,780,000 $0
Arkansas $400,000 $331,900 $0 $2,800,000 $3,789,680 $4,050,000
California $113,579,750 $340,162,248 $1,344,778,819 $1,399,800,143 $2,299,578,879 $1,531,721,032
Colorado $0 $0 $0 $0 $23,048,479 $24,106,877
Connecticut $87,614,575 $113,241,041 $163,266,135 $206,440,541 $267,499,842 $296,143,955
Delaware $7,406,200 NR $35,685,145 $72,600,000 $86,232,800 $91,439,700
DC $115,007,775 $123,051,000 NR $212,050,288 $272,724,274 $301,548,343
Florida $23,214,100 $89,510,720 $92,724,263 $149,738,231 $146,338,770 $181,678,433
Georgia $1,295,589 $1,892,582 $306,393,067 $8,222,757 $6,141,497 $5,284,725
Hawaii $350,000 $0 $0 $0 $0 $0
Idaho $0 $0 $136,000 $312,000 $312,000 $312,000
Illinois $266,813,600 $264,992,700 $467,622,300 $445,600,000 $519,300,000 $568,600,000
Indiana $16,623,895 NR $29,201,270 $37,046,940 $55,733,074 $55,461,491
Iowa $5,367,893 $7,464,513 $10,411,432 $10,140,000 $13,280,543 $12,772,834
Kansas $390,000 $1,000,000 $6,000,000 $6,000,000 $5,761,639 $6,043,458
Kentucky $468,098 $612,196 NR $1,400,000 $3,501,733 $1,577,500
Louisiana $3,000,000 NR NR $4,962,500 $5,962,530 $4,962,500
Maine $1,949,042 $392,000 $420,000 $1,555,000 $1,527,654 $540,845
Maryland $271,066,348 $349,848,000 $273,843,580 $727,433,000 $844,417,234 $838,150,438
Massachusetts $357,508,623 $531,895,787 $771,356,465 $1,197,137,541 $1,182,785,342 $1,281,378,495
Michigan $132,816,959 $124,400,599 $187,197,690 $195,149,300 $200,086,889 $200,754,708
Minnesota $38,071,015 $47,988,633 $80,289,455 $254,527,000 $249,253,000 $242,835,000
Mississippi $32,040 0 $115,185 $800,000 $1,600,000 $1,600,000
Missouri $0 $1,495,000 $17,029,357 $6,600,000 $6,921,541 $6,875,114
Montana $71,250 $75,000 $75,000 $415,197 $414,820 $447,258
Nebraska $1,500,000 $1,529,843 $1,539,135 $1,500,000 $2,900,000 $3,000,000
Nevada $320,000 $437,748 NR $95,000 $0 $0
New Hampshire $1,166,756 $12,208 $0 $225,000 $4,474,250 $828,452
New Jersey $235,225,000 $458,704,000 $509,237,000 $910,584,000 NR $1,035,472,354
New Mexico $0 NR $0 $2,830,000 $9,296,786 $67,623,697
New York $1,422,752,000 1 $1,356,600,000 $1,926,571,085 $2,169,005,000 $3,015,441,656 $4,393,898,700
North Carolina $5,934,875 $22,138,279 $38,246,921 $111,724,897 $73,466,447 $73,466,447
North Dakota $0 $761,329 $1,665,933 $2,203,657 $2,900,000 $2,850,000
Ohio $32,350,882 $29,232,523 $42,348,466 $18,300,000 $15,816,982 $14,676,398
Oklahoma $259,042 $951,497 $3,530,125 $3,250,000 $5,750,000 $5,525,000
Oregon $6,933,258 $44,689,000 $15,553,262 $26,140,529 $39,920,803 $84,877,275
Pennsylvania $425,666,677 $628,400,000 $731,800,000 $835,223,000 $1,145,567,000 $1,194,578,000
Rhode Island $15,253,694 $19,121,259 $36,822,442 $34,847,617 $47,338,005 $48,375,824
South Carolina NR $4,140,384 $4,234,189 $5,943,000 $6,400,000 $6,400,000
South Dakota $0 $300,000 $397,061 $1,891,229 $770,000 $770,000
Tennessee $9,860,000 $12,458,000 $22,291,000 $34,196,000 $41,537,000 $35,219,755
Texas $8,831,085 $17,200,000 $27,945,051 $29,741,067 $28,741,067 $28,741,068
Utah NR $139,929 $0 $0 $0 $0
Vermont $668,644 $860,917 NR $6,266,976 $5,899,044 $6,627,897
Virginia $73,555,000 $78,248,186 $163,959,344 $157,600,000 $228,965,893 $209,524,183
Washington $2,220,900 $6,434,900 $84,455,509 $30,423,000 $39,751,905 $53,527,887
West Virginia $1,261,903 2 $1,537,898 $1,395,489 $2,258,342 $3,023,342 $3,023,342
Wisconsin $53,439,491 $77,321,415 $100,448,100 $109,438,341 $125,179,500 $126,143,800
Wyoming $0 $976,736 NR $2,955,511 $2,495,659 $2,495,659
TOTALS $3,742,211,127 $3 $4,760,994,970 $7,499,314,371 $9,517,290,604 $11,140,442,434 $13,136,567,137

Makes me sick to my stomach to see Ohio with such low numbers. Ranked 47th nationally

In a nutshell: As of 2009, Michigan spent 200,000,000 on PT, while Ohio only spent 14M!!! (Those #s are rounded)

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by usernameunavailable

Surprisingly, Michigan funds their PT better than Ohio. Maybe it is just the fact that DET is the motor city, because it seems like the entire state is opposed to any sort of rail system.

That's true, but the local funding base for Cleveland's RTA has been stronger with its sale's tax commitment which, prior to Greater Detroit's recent RTA arrangement, was not even possible with the Detroit DOT/SEMTA balkanization. Ohio is much stingier to the point of being nearly nonexistent for transit funding, but Michigan had to provide greater funding to its cities like Detroit just to keep transit afloat, which is not the case, at least in Cleveland.