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View Poll Results: Most cosmopolitan?
Chicago 34 28.10%
San Francisco 27 22.31%
Toronto 42 34.71%
Washington D.C. 18 14.88%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-05-2016, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
2,617 posts, read 1,497,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
I'll do it, no problem, in fact I will go ahead and do the entire North American munchkin tier (Boston, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Atlanta, Montreal, Philadelphia, Detroit) altogether. Just give me a day or two to put it all together.
Your work is amazing RJ. PM me if you need any help whatsoever, from compilation or number crunching, etc.
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Old 03-05-2016, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Los Altos Hills, CA
36,628 posts, read 67,146,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
Post number 19 had a good theory that I wanted to see play out. Essentially how I interpreted his idea was that take these 3 American Piranhas and drop them in the shark tank with the Great Whites of New York and Los Angeles, then observe the eventual results. I did just that.

I might just make a new thread of these 4 as a unit against New York and Los Angeles simply on the front of diversity. I'll have to do it again with Toronto added in when I get back to London on Monday.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/43193013-post19.html

I sort of wanted to see how this trio of likesized American PCSAs compared to the hypercity New York and megacity, soon-to-be hypercity Los Angeles. It was an interesting proposition at face value that didn't wield as encouraging results as I'd have hoped for. The trio of Chicago, Washington DC-Baltimore, and San Francisco Bay Area combined for 19 out of 110; Washington DC-Baltimore (8), San Francisco Bay Area (6), and Chicago (5), respectively.

I next want to see if adding Toronto and making them a 4-Pair (Washington DC-San Francisco-Chicago-Toronto), how they would stack up as a sole unit to the megacities New York + Los Angeles. I may just make another thread for that though, since as you pointed New York and Los Angeles aren't in this topic.

Sure it got credit.

Post number 71 in this thread (my post) had a compilation of direct statistical comparison of overseas born populations of San Francisco Bay Area CSA versus Washington DC-Baltimore CSA versus Chicago CSA.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/43221650-post71.html

I color schemed them so that way it would be easy for all to identify the leading city under each national identity and so that way it is easy to count them all up at a later point. Generally each color scheme represented each city, Dark Green the color of Chicago, Dark Red the color of the San Francisco Bay Area, and Dark Blue (alternatively "Navy") the color of Washington DC-Baltimore.

The results of that compilation were Washington DC-Baltimore CSA lead the group with 46, followed by San Francisco Bay Area CSA with 40, and Chicago CSA with the remaining 24.
Thanks, but I had to 18Montclairify this all...


The Bay Area leads the other 2 when it comes to immigrants from highly developed nations, by an astounding margin at that. I'm going to research more to discover the reasons.

Also, you left out the UK I think, so I looked it up and added it to the Bay Area.

Last edited by 18Montclair; 03-05-2016 at 08:41 PM..
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Old 03-05-2016, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle aka tier 3 city :)
1,259 posts, read 1,393,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
I'll do it, no problem, in fact I will go ahead and do the entire North American munchkin tier (Boston, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Atlanta, Montreal, Philadelphia, Detroit) altogether. Just give me a day or two to put it all together.
Thanks
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Old 03-05-2016, 09:55 PM
 
6,840 posts, read 10,884,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
Thanks, but I had to 18Montclairify this all...


The Bay Area leads the other 2 when it comes to immigrants from highly developed nations, by an astounding margin at that. I'm going to research more to discover the reasons.

Also, you left out the UK I think, so I looked it up and added it to the Bay Area.
I like the designations and colors in your chart; neat and organized. Very nice.

You missed Ecuador for Chicago, it has 23. I think you may have accidentally typed Indonesia in twice, one time by accident instead of India (which is missing from the San Francisco Bay Area box). The San Francisco Bay Area total comes out to 41 after you include in the United Kingdom and substitute the second Indonesia in the list for India.

I missed the United Kingdom, you're right, in my list because it didn't register to my brain that it is a foreign country since I live here. I actually remember looking at it while compiling the list and for whatever reason it didn't occur to me it was a foreign country, LOL.

Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 03-05-2016 at 10:06 PM..
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Los Altos Hills, CA
36,628 posts, read 67,146,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red John View Post
You missed Ecuador for Chicago, it has 23. I think you may have accidentally typed Indonesia in twice, one time by accident instead of India (which is missing from the San Francisco Bay Area box). The San Francisco Bay Area total comes out to 41 after you include in the United Kingdom and substitute the second Indonesia in the list for India.

I missed the United Kingdom, you're right, in my list because it didn't register to my brain that it is a foreign country since I live here, haha. I actually remember looking at it while compiling the list and for whatever reason it didn't occur to me it was a foreign country, LOL.
Thanks man. I was doing this and a bunch of other things at the same time so there was room for errors. LOL.
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,711,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsyzzurphands View Post
While I agree that Toronto is definitely cosmopolitan in its own way, its diversity is only a small part of that. I think the cultural institutions in Toronto are very underrated along with the educational institutions. Plus being the main economic engine of the country and the international business connections that come along with that also gives it that claim.

I lived in Toronto for many years as you know and honestly while growing up around a nice variety of races and nationalities is a nice thing, your average Torontonian does not really take full advantage of being around all these ethnic enclaves. For the most part people stick to themselves due to language barriers and people from outside that circle cant truly get in if they dont learn a new language and we all know that is not the case for most people. I never really learned about other cultures intimately until I started traveling. Living within Toronto did not afford me any unique cosmopolitan experience that I could not have experienced elsewhere.

Just my personal opinion.
There's some validity to this. I do agree not everyone has fully taken advantage being in such a milieu but I can't really say for the most part people stick together exclusively. I see and experience it everyday and as you know I've lived here many years too and my experiences trump yours cuz I've been here longer and more recently - I kid, I kid Ed but i'm not just saying this to present a bunch of platitudes - I really do feel this way but yeah what city can't have more integration. In that regard always room for improvement.

As for Toronto's cultural institutions being underrated, perhaps by Americans simply because the city is in another country. We have to give some leeway to this. Its not surprising that you have Americans in here stating that Toronto's cultural institutions aren't as renown as x city - well sure largely because they are probably not all that familiar with them. Its also a matter of interests which could sway a person for one place over the other. Its not because its cultural prowess is greater, its just that they are more interested in the cultural institutions of one place over the other or simply other personal reasons for their bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Sure, but in the case of most direct comparisons between institutions in Toronto and Chicago specifically, it is oftentimes that Chicago's so and so is both more renowned and generally recognized as "better" than its Toronto equivalent.
Not really feeling this.. Some institutions sure.. Others no. As I said, each side can cherry pick but until a full institutional comparison is done by a party familiar with each and doing so with complete objectivity and open mindedness I'll hold back on a 'win' - All said, by and large I think in terms of institutional amenities both cities have their laundry list that check of requisite boxes.

I don't think institutions are on their own the be all of cosmopolitanism either. There's more to it and there's more to visiting an interesting place than just going to museums or the opera (of which both Toronto and Chicago have options). I think some of the more interesting experiences can be found just walking around and taking in all the nabe's and experiencing life as the locals do. That to me is experiencing the real culture of a place. I do this often on my travels and enjoy that every bit as much as taking in a good museum or watching some good theatre. TBH - its actually my favourite part!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjun18 View Post
Toronto > Chicago > Washington

Ive been to those three cities above. I haven't been to SF yet, but I'm guessing it would be 2nd place.
I'm guessing if you went to S.F it would confirm what you are guessing

Last edited by fusion2; 03-06-2016 at 12:45 AM..
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
26,758 posts, read 37,656,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Sure, but in the case of most direct comparisons between institutions in Toronto and Chicago specifically, it is oftentimes that Chicago's so and so is both more renowned and generally recognized as "better" than its Toronto equivalent.
Pound for pound, anything that is American will generally be more "renowned'' than its Canadian equivalent. There are some exceptions to this rule, but not that many really.
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Pound for pound, anything that is American will generally be more "renowned'' than its Canadian equivalent. There are some exceptions to this rule, but not that many really.
The problem is making general comparisons.. Its not really digging deep.. In this case it was cultural institutions in Toronto vs those in Chicago. I guess we'd have to define what those entail ie what 'cultural institutions' are defined and do a point by point comparison. If you blow it up to U.S vs Canada 'renown' than sure, but i'm not sure that this is the platform for that. In any event, i'm still not seeing that even having more 'renowned' or 'better' culturally institutions is automatically connected with having more a more 'cosmopolitan' general populace or being more 'cosmopolitan'

I will say, what Toronto has going for it is much stronger population growth in notable areas where cultural institutions are in the city.
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Old 03-06-2016, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Upper West Side, Manhattan, NYC
15,331 posts, read 23,753,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
In any event, i'm still not seeing that even having more 'renowned' or 'better' culturally institutions is automatically connected with having more a more 'cosmopolitan' general populace or being more 'cosmopolitan'
I agree. A lot of these measures aren't the end all be all of everything. All of it depends on the group's or organizations influence and their own culture. For an art museum for example, it entirely depends on how influential they are in the community and how many people from the community are actually involved in visiting there/how much versus tourists. You could have a very renowned art museum, but it doesn't do much for the community in the way of programming/events or doing anything outside of itself in the community. It could be just there to exist and get people to come whereas a less renowned one might do tons of events all year and actually make the city more cosmopolitan.

Same thing with a foreign born population. Just because one city has a higher Angolan foreign born population doesn't mean that it's automatically more cosmopolitan than another with a lesser foreign born population of the same group (but still a sizable population). The population could be very insular or not too influential to the rest of the community/city. Minneapolis area has a pretty big foreign born Somalian population, but I wouldn't call them influential enough on the rest of the population to make them that much more cosmopolitan (just an example). There's a lot of factors in this and it's more complicated than "every single group, organization, and person has influence and makes the rest of the people/city more cosmopolitan."
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Toronto
15,109 posts, read 15,711,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
I agree. A lot of these measures aren't the end all be all of everything. All of it depends on the group's or organizations influence and their own culture. For an art museum for example, it entirely depends on how influential they are in the community and how many people from the community are actually involved in visiting there/how much versus tourists. You could have a very renowned art museum, but it doesn't do much for the community in the way of programming/events or doing anything outside of itself in the community. It could be just there to exist and get people to come whereas a less renowned one might do tons of events all year and actually make the city more cosmopolitan.

Same thing with a foreign born population. Just because one city has a higher Angolan foreign born population doesn't mean that it's automatically more cosmopolitan than another with a lesser foreign born population of the same group (but still a sizable population). The population could be very insular or not too influential to the rest of the community/city. Minneapolis area has a pretty big foreign born Somalian population, but I wouldn't call them influential enough on the rest of the population to make them that much more cosmopolitan (just an example). There's a lot of factors in this and it's more complicated than "every single group, organization, and person has influence and makes the rest of the people/city more cosmopolitan."
Marothisu - top notch post and good insight into the importance of local/community involvement of an institution and how important that is to culture!

As for demographics, generally speaking I think its fair to say with the huge influx of immigrants and refugees to Toronto, the city is far more cosmopolitan than if it had a closed door policy. If the Toronto of 2016 was similar in demographic make up to the Toronto of 1956, its identity would be stronger and I think it would still have culturally important institutions but the city would be far less worldly. That said, its not just a numbers game either when you are comparing numbers with large cities like in this group. Its not like Chicago, S.F or D.C aren't diverse - they are, very much so.

I think Toronto does fairly well with integration. We got work to do for sure but my building is a great example of a whole bunch of people with different backgrounds living under one roof. Same thing with community events in our nabe. Toronto of 2016 Is not even the Toronto of the 90's anymore.

Last edited by fusion2; 03-06-2016 at 12:29 PM..
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