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Also, saying Europeans didn't want to come to Charleston and Savannah is simply untrue;
I said Industrial-era Europeans.
If we're being generous we can say that starts around 1780, but it is primarily 1800 - 1900.
During that time period, northern port cities exploded in size, while Charleston and Savannah fell off the map. Charleston and Savannah did not recieve the sort of immigrant explosion of the northern port cities. If they did, Charleston and Savannah today would have 5 - 10 million people each.
1790, Charleston is the 4th largest city in America, has about the same population as Boston, and about half the population of New York and Philadelphia.
1850, Charleston is the 15th largest city in America, has 1/3 the population of Boston and Philadelphia, and 1/12th the population of New York.
In that 60-year span, those northern port cities exploded with immigrants from Europe; almost none of them came to the south for reasons I mentioned earlier. Mostly it was because of propaganda in Europe depicting the south as a disease-ridden uninhabitable swamp.
As shown by the 1850 statistics, saying that South Carolina's foreign-born population was 1.3%, Georgia's was 0.7%, compared to New York's 21.2%, Massachusetts's 16.5%, and Pennsylvania's 13.1%
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both cities received, relative to their size, a significant influx of Germans, Irish, French Huguenots, French Catholics from Haiti post-revolution, and Sephardic Jews from Spain and Portugal.
I know that French Huguenots and Jews in particular came well before the industrial revolution. My ancestors were huguenot immigrants to Charleston, and huguenots arrived around the 1670's.
If we're being generous we can say that starts around 1780, but it is primarily 1800 - 1900.
During that time period, northern port cities exploded in size, while Charleston and Savannah fell off the map. Charleston and Savannah did not recieve the sort of immigrant explosion of the northern port cities. If they did, Charleston and Savannah today would have 5 - 10 million people each.
1790, Charleston is the 4th largest city in America, has about the same population as Boston, and about half the population of New York and Philadelphia.
1850, Charleston is the 15th largest city in America, has 1/3 the population of Boston and Philadelphia, and 1/12th the population of New York.
In that 60-year span, those northern port cities exploded with immigrants from Europe; almost none of them came to the south for reasons I mentioned earlier. Mostly it was because of propaganda in Europe depicting the south as a disease-ridden uninhabitable swamp.
As shown by the 1850 statistics, saying that South Carolina's foreign-born population was 1.3%, Georgia's was 0.7%, compared to New York's 21.2%, Massachusetts's 16.5%, and Pennsylvania's 13.1%
I know that French Huguenots and Jews in particular came well before the industrial revolution. My ancestors were huguenot immigrants to Charleston, and huguenots arrived around the 1670's.
New orleans and Baltimore ( two very southern cities at that time) in 1850 is around the same population as Boston and Philly. My ancestors were german- swiss into south carolina and maryland around that era and some anglo into virginia. I don't think that european propaganda statement about the south as swampland seems correct if you look at the high anglo and european protestant immigration into the south, not just the landed gentry and english in the south but scots, scot-irish,german- swiss, etc . Maryland was a very strange state as it had tons of catholic but southern aristocracy and landed gentry but new orleans did as well
I think protestantism and catholicism also played a huge role after all the wars in europe it seems to me that irish catholics and southern italian catholics went up to the northeast in far greater numbers eventually and alot more protestant immigration into other areas
Last edited by floridanative10; 06-15-2016 at 08:08 PM..
- Savannah and Charleston are 2hrs apart whereas Philly and Boston are 7hrs apart
- The southeast coast has no equivalents for Baltimore, DC, and New York
It's not "tautological" in this case. Compared to the Deep South, small Northern population centers near waterways were more numerous at the start of the Industrial revolution. Many were not much more than little towns, but their location in the same region favored the growth of interconnected trade, industry, large city population gains within a decade or two, and transportation projects like early railroads and the Erie Canal. Although subtropical weather and mosquito-borne diseases certainly didn't help matters in Charleston or Savannah, it was their "splendid isolation" and raw-materials agricultural market that limited them.
Also, saying Europeans didn't want to come to Charleston and Savannah is simply untrue; both cities received, relative to their size, a significant influx of Germans, Irish, French Huguenots, French Catholics from Haiti post-revolution, and Sephardic Jews from Spain and Portugal. From the 18th century onward, Savannah and Charleston saw much of the same kind of European immigration that Northern seaports did. The historical worldliness and "Europeanness" of both these southern ports goes beyond quaint architecture. And New Orleans was the European-American city par excellence.
excellent post. savannah ,new orleans, and charleston seem frozen in time to me in a way, at least the historic centers. new orleans even had degas there for awhile. architecturally all those cities are very exotic, sort of caribbean / european especially with all the gardens and wild stuff you can grow there
new orleans ,charleston, and savannah dont seem very american to me in alot of ways, architecturally at least. seems like they could be another country easily . I love those ghost tours there, maybe its nice the historic centers s seem frozen in time
Last edited by JMT; 07-02-2016 at 01:44 PM..
Reason: Violation of rules for posting images
New orleans and Baltimore ( two very southern cities at that time) in 1850 is around the same population as Boston and Philly.
Be that as it may, New Orleans and Baltimore are not Charleston and Savannah.
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My ancestors were german- swiss into south carolina and maryland around that era and some anglo into virginia.
Again, you're talking about a completely different time period.
Anglos migrated to between about 1650 to 1750, with some shortly thereafter.
Palatine swiss-germans came to South Carolina, at least, around 1710.
These were not industrial-era migrants, these were colonial era migrants. Charleston was the 4th largest city in America in 1790. To repeat for the third time: The differentating factor between Charleston/Savannah and Boston/Philly was Industrial Era migration. Charleston and Savannah got very few migrants after 1800. This much is a fact and not a matter of opinion.
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I don't think that european propaganda statement about the south as swampland seems correct
You don't have to believe me, but at least properly comprehend my post before you respond.
- Savannah and Charleston are 2hrs apart whereas Philly and Boston are 7hrs apart
- The southeast coast has no equivalents for Baltimore, DC, and New York
Certainly Charleston and Savannah wouldn't function within their regions like Philly and Boston currently do due to differences in distance, but I'd think that if the factors that limited growth in the former two didn't exist, it would also allow for other large cities to pop up along the South Atlantic coast. There wouldn't be an equivalent to NYC, but perhaps cities like Jacksonville and Wilmington could have blossomed and become a lot larger as well.
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