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Honestly though, what we’re getting for the amount we spend on transit in NYC is pretty embarassing.
NYC has a large system, so that's great but the reliability and scheduling on some lines is atrocious (not all of course - some lines are pretty good with this). Obviously this is easier said than done, but I wish it were better.
I've been on 3 different subway systems in China in the last 6 months (Hong Kong, Shanghai, and Beijing) and they all kill the MTA on this front. Beijing ridership is over 2X that of NYC, Shanghai is just under 2X ridership, and Hong Kong is barely under that of NYC. The length of the systems for both Beijing and Shanghai are larger than NYC too. Honestly, going from each of those back to the MTA was a slap in the face. So many stations are dirty and even at rush hour you'll be waiting for some (not all) trains for 8-10 minutes. Even when I lived in Chicago this didn't happen. I'd actually pick present day CTA or WMATA for this type of metric even though NYC's coverage is more. It's great when trains go to a lot of places, but also when it takes 30 minutes for your train to come because of some weird delay at 9pm, it's easier to just take a cab or walk.
NYC has a large system, so that's great but the reliability and scheduling on some lines is atrocious (not all of course - some lines are pretty good with this). Obviously this is easier said than done, but I wish it were better.
I've been on 3 different subway systems in China in the last 6 months (Hong Kong, Shanghai, and Beijing) and they all kill the MTA on this front. Beijing ridership is over 2X that of NYC, Shanghai is just under 2X ridership, and Hong Kong is barely under that of NYC. The length of the systems for both Beijing and Shanghai are larger than NYC too. Honestly, going from each of those back to the MTA was a slap in the face. So many stations are dirty and even at rush hour you'll be waiting for some (not all) trains for 8-10 minutes. Even when I lived in Chicago this didn't happen. I'd actually pick present day CTA or WMATA for this type of metric even though NYC's coverage is more. It's great when trains go to a lot of places, but also when it takes 30 minutes for your train to come because of some weird delay at 9pm, it's easier to just take a cab or walk.
May have something to do with the age of the system, and some lines not being in a "state of good repair". Most of the delays I've experienced on various legacy subway systems - MBTA, Toronto TTC, NYC, Montreal - they are the result of dated signaling systems and track replacement work which causes trains to chronically slow down or come to a halt mid-way trip. Some aging systems have begun to implement Automated Train Control system - ATC - so that the distance and frequency between each train can be automatically regulated by a computer instead of solely dependent on human controllers and operators. With the implementation of ATC on various systems, I think the chronic delays that we are seeing should ease considerably in the coming years. ATC will also negate the need for multiple operators on a train - most ATC trains can operate with 1 operator or in many cases completely driverless, thus significantly decreasing headcount cost for transit systems (resistance to change from transit unions is another issue).
In general, rapid transit, like any public infrastructure, requires huge amounts of reliable funding in order to maintain a state of good repair - it may appear common sense but it takes a lot of money to make the trains "run on time". This is where many legacy systems in NA have fallen behind.
^ Yes, this all has something to do with it. Signal, track, etc etc. When I had first moved to Chicago, there were some delays (still not as bad as NYC though on average). Then a handful of years ago I remember for one of the lines, they replaced it with new track and also started sending in trains every 2 or 3 minutes during rush hour. The delays went WAY down.
Also, I think with NYC the fact that one track is shared by multiple lines in some areas makes things a lot worse. Also, a lot of people really suck at letting others off the train when it's busy which usually makes time at a stop more, but that's another story.
NYC has a large system, so that's great but the reliability and scheduling on some lines is atrocious (not all of course - some lines are pretty good with this). Obviously this is easier said than done, but I wish it were better.
I've been on 3 different subway systems in China in the last 6 months (Hong Kong, Shanghai, and Beijing) and they all kill the MTA on this front. Beijing ridership is over 2X that of NYC, Shanghai is just under 2X ridership, and Hong Kong is barely under that of NYC. The length of the systems for both Beijing and Shanghai are larger than NYC too. Honestly, going from each of those back to the MTA was a slap in the face. So many stations are dirty and even at rush hour you'll be waiting for some (not all) trains for 8-10 minutes. Even when I lived in Chicago this didn't happen. I'd actually pick present day CTA or WMATA for this type of metric even though NYC's coverage is more. It's great when trains go to a lot of places, but also when it takes 30 minutes for your train to come because of some weird delay at 9pm, it's easier to just take a cab or walk.
And it's not just China and new systems that make you wonder how MTA stacks up so poorly. Large cities all over the world have far better run and cleaner systems. Legacy systems all over the world, with some of these systems being massive, have done better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bostonkid123
May have something to do with the age of the system, and some lines not being in a "state of good repair". Most of the delays I've experienced on various legacy subway systems - MBTA, Toronto TTC, NYC, Montreal - they are the result of dated signaling systems and track replacement work which causes trains to chronically slow down or come to a halt mid-way trip. Some aging systems have begun to implement Automated Train Control system - ATC - so that the distance and frequency between each train can be automatically regulated by a computer instead of solely dependent on human controllers and operators. With the implementation of ATC on various systems, I think the chronic delays that we are seeing should ease considerably in the coming years. ATC will also negate the need for multiple operators on a train - most ATC trains can operate with 1 operator or in many cases completely driverless, thus significantly decreasing headcount cost for transit systems (resistance to change from transit unions is another issue).
In general, rapid transit, like any public infrastructure, requires huge amounts of reliable funding in order to maintain a state of good repair - it may appear common sense but it takes a lot of money to make the trains "run on time". This is where many legacy systems in NA have fallen behind.
The signaling system is probably the primary culprit for why the system has as many issues as it does, though there's a lot more issues than that such as several decades of deferred maintenance, the 24/7 operations, not installing platform doors wherever possible especially at the most trafficked stations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marothisu
^ Yes, this all has something to do with it. Signal, track, etc etc. When I had first moved to Chicago, there were some delays (still not as bad as NYC though on average). Then a handful of years ago I remember for one of the lines, they replaced it with new track and also started sending in trains every 2 or 3 minutes during rush hour. The delays went WAY down.
Also, I think with NYC the fact that one track is shared by multiple lines in some areas makes things a lot worse. Also, a lot of people really suck at letting others off the train when it's busy which usually makes time at a stop more, but that's another story.
ATC can make the interlining operations much, much better.
There's a host of issues with MTA really. There's also nothing so unique about NYC that there aren't already solutions and practices launched elsewhere that would greatly improve things nor is there anything so innately special about NYC that the expansion costs need to be astronomically high. It's really frustrating.
And it's not just China and new systems that make you wonder how MTA stacks up so poorly. Large cities all over the world have far better run and cleaner systems. Legacy systems all over the world, with some of these systems being massive, have done better.
Right. Even other systems in the US like Chicago and DC run a lot better on average. Other ones around the world are much better than all - it's kind of crazy when you think about it. I was in Hong Kong very recently - the MTR was pretty nice (my first time on it). Then I get back and have to ride MTA - so raw and poorly run in comparison.
Quote:
There's a host of issues with MTA really. There's also nothing so unique about NYC that there aren't already solutions and practices launched elsewhere that would greatly improve things nor is there anything so innately special about NYC that the expansion costs need to be astronomically high. It's really frustrating.
I'd been thinking about this since the summer when the line I take to work was delayed every single day. Fortunately it's better now but still could be better. Some of the issues seem correctable, but others, like the fact that some lines share track with so many other lines, seem to kind of make the problem seem much harder to fix.
Right. Even other systems in the US like Chicago and DC run a lot better on average. Other ones around the world are much better than all - it's kind of crazy when you think about it. I was in Hong Kong very recently - the MTR was pretty nice (my first time on it). Then I get back and have to ride MTA - so raw and poorly run in comparison.
I'd been thinking about this since the summer when the line I take to work was delayed every single day. Fortunately it's better now but still could be better. Some of the issues seem correctable, but others, like the fact that some lines share track with so many other lines, seem to kind of make the problem seem much harder to fix.
I actually think the interlining is a good thing overall and that ATC and an in-house team of mathematicians (as several transit systems around the world has) can make that interlining pretty smooth. There's a lot of room for optimization if you have such interlined parts.
Exactly. It's hilarious to hear LA fanboys thump their little chests about finally catching up to places with less than half or a third of their population. For the nation's second largest city and a supposed "world class megacity" LA is rather pathetic and nothing to brag about. Like many things with LA, it's underwhelming.
LA Fanboys? Where do get this talk from? I know you're kids but gee. Get to know LA, how the city is laid out, where these 15 million people live and just how big it is. No other area is as big. The subway and lightrail systems are growing and they're being built right. High density areas and job centers are first priority and that's exactly what's happening. And there's reason to brag. Its almost mind boggling how the LA system has grown over the past decade. With the Regional Connector, the new Crenshaw line, the expansion of the Purple line down Wilshire to Beverly Hills, Century City and Westwood, it's all good to me. So why all the mean girl talk?
I actually think the interlining is a good thing overall and that ATC and an in-house team of mathematicians (as several transit systems around the world has) can make that interlining pretty smooth. There's a lot of room for optimization if you have such interlined parts.
ATC will bring a huge boost to subway reliability, speed, and frequency.
TTC is currently upgrading their lines with ATC, done in portions at a time, but ultimately it will be big win for subway riders even with the frequent delays and weekend subway closures people have to suffer through in order to get ATC up and running: https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Pro...trol/index.jsp
ATC Benefits:
Increased safety:
- Train speed and separation between trains will now be controlled automatically rather than being human controlled
- Real time central train control with precise train location data
Travel Time Improvements:
- Trains driven automatically reduce travel time as trains always travel as close to the civil speed limit as possible (as little as 30-45 seconds lead time between each train during peak times)
- Travel time consistent every run
ATC will bring a huge boost to subway reliability, speed, and frequency.
TTC is currently upgrading their lines with ATC, done in portions at a time, but ultimately it will be big win for subway riders even with the frequent delays and weekend subway closures people have to suffer through in order to get ATC up and running: https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Pro...trol/index.jsp
ATC Benefits:
Increased safety:
- Train speed and separation between trains will now be controlled automatically rather than being human controlled
- Real time central train control with precise train location data
Travel Time Improvements:
- Trains driven automatically reduce travel time as trains always travel as close to the civil speed limit as possible (as little as 30-45 seconds lead time between each train during peak times)
- Travel time consistent every run
Yea, and the large amount of interlining in NYC is the perfect kind of logistical issue that computer modeling is good for. This really can’t come soon enough, though some part of me feels like MTA is really going to bungle this for a while.
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