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It’s more correct to think of lines as not the individual Number/letter, but as the number/letter groupings. For the most part every group of trains that runs together for any portion is a line. Ex:
EFMR = Queens blvd line (Queens)
NQRW = Broadway line (Manhattan)
BQ = Brighton Beach line (Brooklyn)
456 = Lexington Ave line (Manhattan)
Etc.
You can even forget about the official names and just call them by their letter groupings. And this usually works whether the colors match up or not.
Ex: JMZ, 25, NW, FG, etc.
So for example I live by the JMZ, which has the M train, but I wouldn’t tell people I live by the BDFM, even though it’s the same M train because it’s a different line. And I wouldn’t call the B, D, or F along Sixth Avenue a different line from the M either. Those trains together make up that line.
In most cities you have the train which has one name and one color, and that is also the line. Usually train and line are synonymous terms and more clear, and don’t do all the switching and mixing that happens in NYC. I guess this is one reason why NYC subway has a reputation as being one of the more confusing systems in the world (the maps and the system itself).
Philly for instance has the Market-Frankford line and The Broad Street line. Those tell you exactly where they run and are clearly colored and labeled on the map. DC uses colors as their line names, so even though the Red line doesn’t tell you where it goes, you can easily look at the map and follow the Red color. Now let’s say you’re a tourist in NYC and you get on the F train. The letter F doesn’t tell you anything at all except “**** you”. Sure you can look at the map and try to find the F’s at all the stations but it’s not as easy as following one straight simple line or color. I already mentioned how the color coding in NYC doesn’t help much except for with Midtown. In fact it probably adds more confusion to some people if anything. Trying to follow the orange on the map doesn’t always tell you where the F goes since the orange colors branch off all over the place in every borough from the top of The Bronx to the bottom of Brooklyn. You have to look closer at each orange branch to see which one has the F train. In reality, the F train is a route that follows a specific sequence of lines: Queens blvd line —> 63rd st line —> Sixth Ave line —> Culver line. Or you can say: EFMR —> F —> BDFM —> FG
Though you may be onto something if you’re just trying to keep it simple for tourists and not worrying about being correct. I think that simplification works for tourists but if someone moves here or really wants to understand the system they should probably know this stuff.
using my rules, theres a 7 line, an l line, a 1,2,3,4,5,6 line which branches into 6 different terminal stations, and an a,b,c,d,e,f,g,j,m,n,q,r,w,z line that spurs off into 14 terminal stations.
Your rules actually get those 2 right. The 7 and the L are the only 2 examples where “train” and “line” equal the same thing. They’re also the only 2 trains that run completely alone by themselves and never join with any others. Ignoring the shuttles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
I wonder how San Juan’s system weathered the hurricane
I hadn’t even thought about this, but I imagine not too well, especially with all the power outages. I wouldnt be surprised if it were completely shut down for a lot of this time. I’m curious too. I tried to Google it but couldn’t find anything.
I hadn’t even thought about this, but I imagine not too well, especially with all the power outages. I wouldnt be surprised if it were completely shut down for a lot of this time. I’m curious too. I tried to Google it but couldn’t find anything.
I've been wondering about this too, and there is nothing out there.
It’s more correct to think of lines as not the individual Number/letter, but as the number/letter groupings. For the most part every group of trains that runs together for any portion is a line. Ex:
EFMR = Queens blvd line (Queens)
NQRW = Broadway line (Manhattan)
BQ = Brighton Beach line (Brooklyn)
456 = Lexington Ave line (Manhattan)
Etc.
You can even forget about the official names and just call them by their letter groupings. And this usually works whether the colors match up or not.
Ex: JMZ, 25, NW, FG, etc.
So for example I live by the JMZ, which has the M train, but I wouldn’t tell people I live by the BDFM, even though it’s the same M train because it’s a different line. And I wouldn’t call the B, D, or F along Sixth Avenue a different line from the M either. Those trains together make up that line.
In most cities you have the train which has one name and one color, and that is also the line. Usually train and line are synonymous terms and more clear, and don’t do all the switching and mixing that happens in NYC. I guess this is one reason why NYC subway has a reputation as being one of the more confusing systems in the world (the maps and the system itself).
Philly for instance has the Market-Frankford line and The Broad Street line. Those tell you exactly where they run and are clearly colored and labeled on the map. DC uses colors as their line names, so even though the Red line doesn’t tell you where it goes, you can easily look at the map and follow the Red color. Now let’s say you’re a tourist in NYC and you get on the F train. The letter F doesn’t tell you anything at all except “**** you”. Sure you can look at the map and try to find the F’s at all the stations but it’s not as easy as following one straight simple line or color. I already mentioned how the color coding in NYC doesn’t help much except for with Midtown. In fact it probably adds more confusion to some people if anything. Trying to follow the orange on the map doesn’t always tell you where the F goes since the orange colors branch off all over the place in every borough from the top of The Bronx to the bottom of Brooklyn. You have to look closer at each orange branch to see which one has the F train. In reality, the F train is a route that follows a specific sequence of lines: Queens blvd line —> 63rd st line —> Sixth Ave line —> Culver line. Or you can say: EFMR —> F —> BDFM —> FG
Though you may be onto something if you’re just trying to keep it simple for tourists and not worrying about being correct. I think that simplification works for tourists but if someone moves here or really wants to understand the system they should probably know this stuff.
I think the individual train, for starters, is by far the most important thing. In my opinion, it's most important for someone to know where each train goes, rather than which groupings exist, which would be overwhelming for someone learning the system. The D and F are both part of the 6th ave line, but spend most of their geographic time not together, so the fact that they share a line is only useful if you're travelling within Midtown Manhattan.
You kind of explained yourself why following the letter is most simple, as color coding is not useful outside of Midtown Manhattan. Explaining lines even further than color is a concept that I think is too confusing for newbies, that's more like something you learn yourself over time. I wouldn't be surprised if the average F train rider doesn't even know what the "Culver line" is.
I'm fully familiar with the subway system, to the point I could probably draw most of the map by memory, however I only mentally lump in the trains by their trunk line when I have more than one option to make the same trip , like going from Herald Square to Union Square.
And in my opinion it's kind of arbitrary what a "line" constitutes, I don't think it's incorrect to use line interchangeably with route, even though line in the context of the NYC subway generally refers to trunk line.
I think the individual train, for starters, is by far the most important thing. In my opinion, it's most important for someone to know where each train goes, rather than which groupings exist, which would be overwhelming for someone learning the system. The D and F are both part of the 6th ave line, but spend most of their geographic time not together, so the fact that they share a line is only useful if you're travelling within Midtown Manhattan.
You kind of explained yourself why following the letter is most simple, as color coding is not useful outside of Midtown Manhattan. Explaining lines even further than color is a concept that I think is too confusing for newbies, that's more like something you learn yourself over time. I wouldn't be surprised if the average F train rider doesn't even know what the "Culver line" is.
I'm fully familiar with the subway system, to the point I could probably draw most of the map by memory, however I only mentally lump in the trains by their trunk line when I have more than one option to make the same trip , like going from Herald Square to Union Square.
And in my opinion it's kind of arbitrary what a "line" constitutes, I don't think it's incorrect to use line interchangeably with route, even though line in the context of the NYC subway generally refers to trunk line.
Idk maybe it’s because I spend more time in Brooklyn now than I do in Manhattan these days, but I’ve started paying more attention to to non-trunk lines in recent years. Especially because I live in Northern Brooklyn, but work in South Brooklyn, and know people all over BK and am always traveling all over the borough. So to me I do think of trains in pairs with other mismatched color trains just as much as the trunk lines, like the 2/5, the 3/4 DNR, BQ, JMZ, FG, etc. Also having grown up by the Queens blvd line, the E and the F have always been grouped together in my mind that way. So in Manhattan you can say that the B and F run on the same line, but in the context of Brooklyn that would be incorrect. Instead in Brooklyn the B and the Q run on the same line. And people definitely will say to take the “BQ” just like someone would say “BDFM” in Manhattan.
Actually now that I think about it, Brooklyn is really the only place where this happens outside Queens blvd and the ABCD in the UWS.
I do agree though it’s better to just ignore the official name like “Culver line” and call it the FG. But I used to live off the FG and would take the F everyday to work in Manhattan from Brooklyn, and I bet that everyday F train riders in Brooklyn would know what Culver line means since they see “CULVER LOCAL” on the train every single day. It’s definitely good to know. If you get on a Brooklyn-bound Q in Manhattan and see that is says “via Sea Beach”, you know it’s re-routed on the Sea Beach line, which is the N in Brooklyn. Or when I lived off the F/G if the F train said “Jamaica via Crosstown” then I knew it was gonna run on the G line.
Yeah it probably is easier to start with learning individual trains. I was just trying to explain to another poster that wanted to know how many lines the NYC subway has. In most cities this would be a straight simple answer, but not here, lol.
Yeah and those trips will take you at least 80-90 minutes with multiple transfers on Metro Rail. A trip on BART with equivalent distances would take 35-55 minutes with a one-seat ride/no transfers. I would not call LA's system "fast" at all. There are way too many at-grade crossings and even areas where cars have signal priority over trains. It's kind of ridiculous you have trains traveling at street level with at-grade crossings in the downtown area of the nation's second largest city. LA really needs more grade-separation with its rail system to make it truly "world class".
The Regional Connector Downtown light rail tunnel will help alot, though, to reduce transfers. And the Gold Line from Azusa to Downtown LA averages 30 miles per hour, compared with 35 miles per hour average on the BART and DC Metro, so not too shabby. Although I completely understand your complaints of at-grade crossings when it comes to the Expo Line, which averages 17 miles per hour and even has to stop at red lights.
For an American rail transit system that has stops fairly spaced out, at the rate of one stop per mile, we really should be expecting somewhere around 30 miles per hour on average.
The Regional Connector Downtown light rail tunnel will help alot, though, to reduce transfers. And the Gold Line from Azusa to Downtown LA averages 30 miles per hour, compared with 35 miles per hour average on the BART and DC Metro, so not too shabby. Although I completely understand your complaints of at-grade crossings when it comes to the Expo Line, which averages 17 miles per hour and even has to stop at red lights.
For an American rail transit system that has stops fairly spaced out, at the rate of one stop per mile, we really should be expecting somewhere around 30 miles per hour on average.
I still say the Expo line is one of the best non-heavy rail segments of mass transit in the country.
45 minutes from downtown to Santa Monica, traveling right through the densest tracts of the county. The Purple line will be even more impressive, I think something like 27 minutes from Union Station to UCLA.
The Regional Connector Downtown light rail tunnel will help alot, though, to reduce transfers. And the Gold Line from Azusa to Downtown LA averages 30 miles per hour, compared with 35 miles per hour average on the BART and DC Metro, so not too shabby. Although I completely understand your complaints of at-grade crossings when it comes to the Expo Line, which averages 17 miles per hour and even has to stop at red lights.
For an American rail transit system that has stops fairly spaced out, at the rate of one stop per mile, we really should be expecting somewhere around 30 miles per hour on average.
Rapid transit is by far the most expensive undertaking any city engages in and, in every case, the cities can't do it by themselves... The largest systems in this country were either initially financed by private companies (legacy systems of New York, Chicago and Boston... even Cleveland's Rapid) or, in modern times, heavy Federal Government subsidy.
Timing is everything. SF has BART, a trendy space-age computer driven system which the Fed was interested in getting behind in the go-go 1960s and 70s. Had LA seriously pushed for rapid transit during this era, it would have a BART/DC Metro or even MARTA, too. Now with more "sensible" spending toward transit, it has the current LA Metro rail: a largely LRT system with considerable surface running, grade crossing and some street running controlled partly by traffic light but with the 1 2-pronged HRT Red-Purple line, which is the closest LA will get to a BART, but probably mores sensible than BART while being just as effective... (conversely, had SF waited till the late 80s/early 90s, no way would BART have been built as it is -- it would likely be much shorter and/or LRT without computer driven trains).
I do think LA's Blue/Expo line is a bit weird with trains running at street level stopping a traffic lights, even crossing driveways almost all the way into the CBD. But on many levels, LA's system makes sense for LA, which is an A-typical American big city: it's very diffuse with few nodes. Now that's changing rapidly with the rail system. Downtown LA is much stronger and larger with rail access. Apartment towers which you wouldn't have seen before are sprouting everywhere and downtown is actually a very walkable area now. I also know that despite its clunkiness, the LRT is working. The Blue line, alone, is one of the busiest LRTs in America. I used LRT to get to the Rose Bowl game a few years ago: drove to Culver City station's parking lot, took the Expo Line into town, transfer to the Red/Purple Line to Union Station then transferred to the Gold Line to Pasadena... It was great. The Gold Line, despite considerable street running, was very fast. It gets you from downtown to central Pasadena (a considerable traditional old city in itself) in about 22 minutes (its actually a subway through downtown Pasadena).
Now, with the regional connector, the new airport line, Metrolink commuter rail and, soon, the HRT connection to SF and someday south to San Diego, LA has a rail network well suited for the city and is spawning a ton of TOD. LA has come light years in just 3 decades before which it had no rail transit at all.
Rapid transit is by far the most expensive undertaking any city engages in and, in every case, the cities can't do it by themselves... The largest systems in this country were either initially financed by private companies (legacy systems of New York, Chicago and Boston... even Cleveland's Rapid) or, in modern times, heavy Federal Government subsidy.
Minor historical nit to pick:
Chicago's elevated railways were built by private companies operating under a city franchise, but subway tunnels were a different story: all of the legacy subways were either wholly public undertakings (Boston, at least the portions within the city limits, and Chicago's "Initial System of Subways") or public-private partnerships (New York City, where the city and the Interborough Rapid Transit Company shared in the financing of the first subway lines).
Only Philadelphia had an entirely privately built subway tunnel, built by the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company (successor to the Market Street Elevated Passenger Railway Company) under a city franchise. The city was so unhappy with the pace of construction that the city opted to build future subway and elevated lines itself. It approved seven and built two: the Frankford Elevated Railway and the Broad Street Subway and Ridge Avenue spur.
New York's "Independent Subway System" ("independent" of the private traction interests) was also entirely city-built, starting in 1929.
All four cities - Boston, Chicago, New York, Philadelphia - received Federal funding to build the subway lines they built in the 1930s, through one of two New Deal agencies, the Public Works Administration or Works Progress Administration. New York's, Chicago's and Philadelphia's 1950s subways were public undertakings as well, with no Federal support I'm aware of.
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