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Atlanta's urban area is over twice as large as DC's (which has been separated from Baltimore here). For its size, Atlanta is probably the most sprawling metro on Earth, with a density of only 600 ppsm.
That's a ridiculous number, and absolutely not true.
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
3,530 posts, read 4,172,934 times
Reputation: 2925
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMatl
That's a ridiculous number, and absolutely not true.
Do the math--the (2016) MSA ends up with 691 ppsm, while the CSA is at 614 ppsm. If you want to wring me over 14 and 91 ppsm go for it, but the fact remains that it is absolutely sprawling and is completely ridiculous.
The urban area (which I can't link to, per the mods) fares better at 1,700 ppsm, but again, there is no other urban area of comparable population size with those numbers. The closest would be the newly defined (and possibly overreaching) Boston-Providence urban area at 2,000 ppsm. Charlotte and Nashville have identical ppsm numbers, but those urban areas are over 3.5 times smaller in population. Again, there is no other metropolitan area on Earth with the population of Atlanta that sprawls as much. Absolutely none. Atlanta is the 1,033rd most dense metro on earth, and the last seven least dense metros are all much, much smaller (and also located in the Southeast).
I would say given the pretty steady 80-100K per year growth in the greater Toronto and Hamilton area over the last few decades by about 2040 Toronto should qualify comfortably as a megacity. If again however you count the Golden Horseshoe which is already at 9.3 million than really by next census in 2021 Toronto will anchor a region that is just straddling megacity status. This may not be much of a stretch as all these municipalities in the horseshoe are becoming more interconnected including pretty significant regional heavy rail transit development linking them together ever more closely. Even now the horseshoe accounts for 26 percent of Canada's population and a quarter its GDP so it already anchors the country economically and I would say qualifies as a primate region in this regard.
Growth will mainly be as a result of immigration which has been the main fuel of the city and regions growth for the last 50 years. That all said, given the economic hardships out west I think the region will also fuel a lot more domestic movement and given the ever increasing population, natural growth should be healthy.
Yes, Toronto was fed by immigration. But I might add here - the Nation of Canada is selective in choosing much more highly-educated immigrants then the US LEGALLY and Forget the low-skilled ILLEGAL REFUGEE as Canadians seem to forget sometimes?
The US has illegal immigrants in the US that outnumbers the whole population of Canada. Yet gets NO UNDERSTANDING of this scope of REFUGEES that they really are. Instead the US got demonized by even Canadians on C-D for those agreeing with - President Trumps Ban on Syrian Refugees. Not realizing or acknowledging. The extent of the US REFUGEE Illegal issue here.
* Canada became the more compassionate immigrant Nation then here. Though it is very selective in legal immigration to Canada. Then taking in more Syrian Refugees then the US.
Makes the US as the Ugly less compassionate Nation of Hypocrisy.
All these decades Canada had
- none of these 10s of millions of refuges.
- grew very selective in its legal immigration process
- its cities had none of the drastic racial changing in its cities that became radical in some where a White-Flight lead to huge declines of its older Northern cities.
It is history and links available to document it. Toronto had little in the way of obstacles to slow its growth or lower the quality of its immigrants to lower-skilled illegal groups and large numbers of Latino immigrants many lower-skilled even legally in the US that had NO REAL EDUCATION Barriers. Most want that criteria OF HIGHEST SKILLED A PRIORIT ----> as strong as Canada's.
According to Statistics Canada, as of July 2012, the Canadian population was estimated to be 34,880,500. According to CIC’s statistics, approximately 257,515 persons were admitted to Canada for permanent residence in 2012. Of those,
- 160,617 were admitted as economic class immigrants and their dependents, 64,901 as family class immigrants,
- 23,056 as refugees,
- 8,936 in other immigrant categories
Canada had been known to have a fairly broad and generous immigration policy, but since 2006, the government has pursued reforms to “focus Canada’s immigration system on fuelling economic prosperity” and to place
“a high priority on finding people who have the skills and experience required to meet Canada’s economic needs
Apart from the Federal Skilled Workers Program, which is based on a points system, Canada also grants permanent residency to skilled workers under its Federal Skilled Trades Program and the Canadian Experience Class (CEC). The Federal Skilled Trades Program is for persons “who want to become permanent residents based on being qualified in a skilled trade.”[7] This relatively new program started on January 2, 2013, to deal with labor shortages of skilled traders in some regions of the country
Canada’s points system is designed to attract immigrants who show promise of being able to join in and contribute to their new communities. According to CIC, it has by and large succeeded in meeting the “immediate and longer-term need for highly skilled professionals, and addresses Canada’s broader immigration objectives
Most low-skilled workers are not eligible to become permanent residents in Canada. However, workers under the Live-in Caregivers Program can apply to become permanent residents as long as they meet certain requirements.[24] Low-skilled workers may also be eligible to gain permanent residency through Provincial Nominee Programs
It is when Canadians Mock the US as a HYPOCRITICAL nation to have tried to ban Syrian Refugees. That I point this out too.
***But my Post ON DENSITY #'s showing NYC's METRO Density #s pretty LOW. But LA's - was one of the US highest and I MERELY ADDED TORONTO as C-D welcomes Canadian cities as if NA was one under General US and city vs. city forums.
US Immigrant #s 2010
- The number of immigrants (legal and illegal) in the country hit a new record of 40 million in 2010, a 28 percent increase over the total in 2000.
- Of top sending countries to the US, the largest percentage increase in the last decade was for those from Honduras (85 percent), India (74 percent), Guatemala (73 percent), Peru (54 percent), El Salvador (49 percent), Ecuador (48 percent), and China (43 percent).
Educational Attainment level of US immigrants 2012.
- Of adult immigrants (25 to 65), 28 percent have not completed high school, compared to 7 percent of natives.
- The share of immigrants (25 to 65) with at least a bachelor’s degree is somewhat lower than that of natives — 29 vs. 33 percent.
- The large share of immigrants with relatively little education is one of the primary reasons for their lower socioeconomic status, not their legal status or an unwillingness to work.
- At the same time immigration added significantly to the number of less-educated workers, the share of young, less-educated natives holding a job declined significantly. The decline began well before the current economic downturn.
* I did not mention Toronto as UNDESERVING the density #s. But WHY NYC's METRO BROUGHT IT SO FAR DOWN. When you felt a need to BOLSTER TORONTO'S DESERVED #'s? I should have just OMITED IT and just pointed out LA's Metro high density #'s vs. NYC's?
The whole Boston to DC Megalopolis is perhaps the densest in the US? But DID NOT HELP NYC's Metro here in the TOPIC OF 2017 DENITY STATS.
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
3,530 posts, read 4,172,934 times
Reputation: 2925
Quote:
Originally Posted by iMarvin
The difference in density of the Canadian/Mexican cities compared to the American ones is crazy to me.
Yup. And even those are on the middle/low end of the global scale--Mexico City is only the 249th most dense urban area in the world. Makes one appreciate what we have here in the United States, in terms of personal space.
Yes, Toronto was fed by immigration. But I might ad here - the Nation of Canada is selective in choosing much more highly-educated immigrants then the US LEGALLY and Forget the low-skilled ILLEGAL REFUGEE as Canadians seem to forget sometimes?
The US has illegal immigrants in the US that outnumbers the whole population of Canada. Yet gets NO UNDERSTANDING of this scope of REFUGEES that they really are. Instead the US got demonized by even Canadians on C-D for those agreeing with - President Trumps Ban on Syrian Refugees. Not realizing or acknowledging. The extent of the US REFUGEE Illegal issue here.
Canada has a much larger per capita legal immigration flow than the U.S does. Each year Canada admits 250-300K immigrants vs the U.S 1.1 million yet the U.S has 9X the population. Toronto and the GTA benefit from this growth more than any other metro In Canada by a factor of 2:1 over the next largest Montreal. So yes Toronto benefits from heavy immigration growth and has for the last 50 years. This is actually the biggest reason it is the largest city in the country now. As for illegal immigrants in the U.S - I thought that number stood at 11 million. If that is correct that is less than a third the population of Canada but yes, illegal immigration in Canada is not much of a problem. What do you want me to say about that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
* Canada became the more compassionate immigrant Nation then here. Though it is very selective in legal immigration to Canada. Then taking in more Syrian Refugees then the US.
Makes the US as the Ugly less compassionate Nation of Hypocrisy.
All these decades Canada had .
- none of these 10s of millions of refuges.
- grew very selective in its legal immigration process
- its cities had none of the drastic racial changing in its cities that became radical in some where a White-Flight lead to huge declines of its older Northern cities.
Ok what do you want me to say to all this lol... As for Montreal, I told you before, Toronto was growing faster than Montreal well before the separatist flares of the 70's. The Toronto stock exchange for example was larger and more important than Montreal's by the 40s and metro growth rates were exceeding Metro Montreal's by the 50's. Once heavy immigration growth started coming in the 60's and beyond Toronto's metro was leaving Montreal in the dust in terms of growth well before the 70's separatist problem so the writing was already on the wall that Montreal was losing ground to an emerging Toronto. The separatist movement certainly helped Toronto but so what - lots of cities benefit as a result of instability in other places. This has been a constant throughout history - this isn't a Toronto only thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
It is history and links available to document it. Toronto had little in the way of obstacles to slow its growth or lower the quality of its immigrants to lower-skilled illegal groups and large numbers of Latino immigrants many lower-skilled even legally in the US that had NO REAL EDUCATION Barriers. Most want that criteria OF HIGHEST SKILLED A PRIORIT ----> as strong as Canada's.
According to Statistics Canada, as of July 2012, the Canadian population was estimated to be 34,880,500. According to CIC’s statistics, approximately 257,515 persons were admitted to Canada for permanent residence in 2012. Of those,
- 160,617 were admitted as economic class immigrants and their dependents, 64,901 as family class immigrants,
- 23,056 as refugees,
- 8,936 in other immigrant categories
Canada had been known to have a fairly broad and generous immigration policy, but since 2006, the government has pursued reforms to “focus Canada’s immigration system on fuelling economic prosperity” and to place
“a high priority on finding people who have the skills and experience required to meet Canada’s economic needs
Apart from the Federal Skilled Workers Program, which is based on a points system, Canada also grants permanent residency to skilled workers under its Federal Skilled Trades Program and the Canadian Experience Class (CEC). The Federal Skilled Trades Program is for persons “who want to become permanent residents based on being qualified in a skilled trade.”[7] This relatively new program started on January 2, 2013, to deal with labor shortages of skilled traders in some regions of the country
Canada’s points system is designed to attract immigrants who show promise of being able to join in and contribute to their new communities. According to CIC, it has by and large succeeded in meeting the “immediate and longer-term need for highly skilled professionals, and addresses Canada’s broader immigration objectives
Most low-skilled workers are not eligible to become permanent residents in Canada. However, workers under the Live-in Caregivers Program can apply to become permanent residents as long as they meet certain requirements.[24] Low-skilled workers may also be eligible to gain permanent residency through Provincial Nominee Programs
It is when Canadians Mock the US as a HYPOCRITICAL nation to have tried to ban Syrian Refugees. That I point this out too.
Sounds like good sense to me. As for the Syrian refugees I think it was largely a publicity stunt for our new PM to make a statement about how wonderful and progressive Canada is. It was as much about politics as having a heart but hey, those 40K people are certainly better off now than before so its all good. I've never by the way tried to make the US an evil nation in terms of immigration btw. I find Trumps recent ban moves to be rather arbitrary and useless but hey - politics right!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
***But my Post ON DENSITY #'s showing NYC's METRO Density #s pretty LOW. But LA's - was one of the US highest and I MERELY ADDED TORONTO as C-D welcomes Canadian cities as if NA was one under General US and city vs. city forums.
I did not mention Toronto as UNDESERVING the density #s. But WHY NYC's METRO BROUGHT IT SO FAR DOWN. When you felt a need to BOLSTER TORONTO'S DESERVED #'s? I should have just OMITED IT and just pointed out LA's Metro high density #'s vs. NYC's?
The whole Boston to DC Megalopolis is perhaps the densest in the US? But DID NOT HELP NYC's Metro here in the TOPIC OF 2017 DENITY STATS.
I honestly don't know what you are trying to say here. As for Toronto in C v C forums yes - Canadian and Mexican cities are allowed to be added to the C v C in the U.S section - its a good move as far as i'm concerned - makes things a bit more interesting than constant vs about whether Houston will ever be bigger than Chicago - right!?
Do the math--the (2016) MSA ends up with 691 ppsm, while the CSA is at 614 ppsm. If you want to wring me over 14 and 91 ppsm go for it, but the fact remains that it is absolutely sprawling and is completely ridiculous.
The urban area (which I can't link to, per the mods) fares better at 1,700 ppsm, but again, there is no other urban area of comparable population size with those numbers. The closest would be the newly defined (and possibly overreaching) Boston-Providence urban area at 2,000 ppsm. Charlotte and Nashville have identical ppsm numbers, but those urban areas are over 3.5 times smaller in population. Again, there is no other metropolitan area on Earth with the population of Atlanta that sprawls as much. Absolutely none. Atlanta is the 1,033rd most dense metro on earth, and the last seven least dense metros are all much, much smaller (and also located in the Southeast).
If you're so concerned about the density in metro Atlanta then tell your northern friends to quit moving there and moving out to the suburbs.
Canada has a much larger per capita legal immigration flow than the U.S does. Each year Canada admits 250-300K immigrants vs the U.S 1.1 million yet the U.S has 9X the population. Toronto and the GTA benefit from this growth more than any other metro In Canada by a factor of 2:1 over the next largest Montreal. So yes Toronto benefits from heavy immigration growth and has for the last 50 years. This is actually the biggest reason it is the largest city in the country now. As for illegal immigrants in the U.S - I thought that number stood at 11 million. If that is correct that is less than a third the population of Canada but yes, illegal immigration in Canada is not much of a problem. What do you want me to say about that?
Ok what do you want me to say to all this lol... As for Montreal, I told you before, Toronto was growing faster than Montreal well before the separatist flares of the 70's. The Toronto stock exchange for example was larger and more important than Montreal's by the 40s and metro growth rates were exceeding Metro Montreal's by the 50's. Once heavy immigration growth started coming in the 60's and beyond Toronto's metro was leaving Montreal in the dust in terms of growth well before the 70's separatist problem so the writing was already on the wall that Montreal was losing ground to an emerging Toronto. The separatist movement certainly helped Toronto but so what - lots of cities benefit as a result of instability in other places. This has been a constant throughout history - this isn't a Toronto only thing.
Sounds like good sense to me. As for the Syrian refugees I think it was largely a publicity stunt for our new PM to make a statement about how wonderful and progressive Canada is. It was as much about politics as having a heart but hey, those 40K people are certainly better off now than before so its all good. I've never by the way tried to make the US an evil nation in terms of immigration btw. I find Trumps recent ban moves to be rather arbitrary and useless but hey - politics right!?
I honestly don't know what you are trying to say here. As for Toronto in C v C forums yes - Canadian and Mexican cities are allowed to be added to the C v C in the U.S section - its a good move as far as i'm concerned - makes things a bit more interesting than constant vs about whether Houston will ever be bigger than Chicago - right!?
Guess Canadian politicians can exaggerate to gain a point of power and politicians are politicians at the end of the day. Including businessman Politicians. But on C-D, Canadians were ready to BOYCOTT America and many claimed they were before all this NAFTA points of protectionism of a nations business interest.
I agree Canada is SMART to want the MOST SKILLED Immigrants first and system that gains them BY FAR. But spare the Compassionate Canada vs. hypocritical US in Immigration laws to get in Canada's point system requirements that DOES SAY if you have no Degrees or Trades we need? Fa'geta'bout Canada. Or merely seek the other options now that you might get lucky with.
I did not point out Houston or Chicago. Other then the stats. But the Toronto proper threads overtaking Chicago in population. Were much worst as some I believe got closed.
I almost thought of creating a thread from reading a popular Torontonian's post? Claiming that Houston would ----> NEVER overtake Toronto in population I took that as city proper and metro's too? But did not do a thread, but time will tell? I have really no interest in it anyway.
Canadians seem to relish moving farther from the US and feel more unity with the EU and UK. More and more that is vented on C-D. That educated me. I got a kick out of virtually laughing of Starbucks in Asian to European cities as their local fare is just ----->sooooo far superior. May be true of course, but it was a SLIGHT aimed to things AMERICAN. Far more then that company itself.
I do enjoy reading all the underlying passive/AGGRESSIVE notions on Canada's vexing its superiority from its cities to newly defining its culture separating it from the US. Just in the end. I'd say unity would win. But till then, seems many desire a virtual WALL on the US/Canada border too. A cultural on especially.
I still say you can have Justin Bieber back? I liked your Toronto pictures in the one thread. Got a smirk seeing TRUMPS name in lights. On his Toronto hotel high-rise there on the one photo.....
If you're so concerned about the density in metro Atlanta then tell your northern friends to quit moving there and moving out to the suburbs.
Anecdotally, I work with a couple people who moved from NYC, Boston, and Philly. ALL of them live out in the northern burbs. People like the space and still being able to get those big city amenities.
Honestly I think the nail in the coffin of Montreal being Canada's largest and most important city was immigration growth more than separatism. We can all pretend that the majority of immigrants to North America would prefer to live in a predominantly French speaking city - but that is simply NOT the case. English has been the most important language in the world now for some time now, so the largest English speaking city, in a largely English speaking country with immigrants who are more attracted to the business advantages of English meant Toronto probably was destined to become larger and more important than Montreal well before the 70's. Certainly the separatist movement didn't help Montreal but I think you are overstating this event more than just the steady and constant stream of immigrants that preferred moving to Canada's largest and most diverse English speaking city. In the end though, yes what happened in the 70's meant there was no chance Montreal would compete with Toronto in terms of economic dominance in Canada.
Montreal and Quebec in general is predominantly French and that will always give it a more unique flair than the largely English nature of the rest of Canada and the U.S. It is what it is and i'm happy that we have Quebec in our country but the bottom line is Toronto is now the premier city in the country and that is not going to change for as long as everyone on this forum is alive. I don't mean to sound arrogant at all about this but it is what it is. I for one am happy to be living in Toronto - it is a great and layered city that is not easy to pin down but has much to see, do and explore, particularly for those of us who live in it and call it home. The growth and change of the metro is startling and very exciting. In Canada there isn't anywhere else i'd rather live and there isn't anywhere else in the country with as much choice and variety and that will only increase with time not decrease relative to other cities in Canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
Guess Canadian politicians can exaggerate to gain a point of power and politicians are politicians at the end of the day. Including businessman Politicians. But on C-D, Canadians were ready to BOYCOTT America and many claimed they were before all this NAFTA points of protectionism of a nations business interest.
Well the fact is your new President is not doing a very good job in terms of diplomacy with traditional friends and allies. His protectionism and isolationism is probably not in the best interest of the American worker or consumer. This change of approach in U.S diplomacy is not gaining any friends internationally and there are signs this will start to hurt the average U.S worker and consumer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
I agree Canada is SMART to want the MOST SKILLED Immigrants first and system that gains them BY FAR. But spare the Compassionate Canada vs. hypocritical US in Immigration laws to get in Canada's point system requirements that DOES SAY if you have no Degrees or Trades we need? Fa'geta'bout Canada. Or merely seek the other options now that you might get lucky with.
Well Canada abides by its requirements to the UNHCR convention on refugees. That is compassion. I have seen a refugee hearing before and it is without a doubt extraordinarily fair and compassionate but Canada isn't stupid either when it comes to immigration policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
I almost thought of creating a thread from reading a popular Torontonian's post? Claiming that Houston would ----> NEVER overtake Toronto in population I took that as city proper and metro's too? But did not do a thread, but time will tell? I have really no interest in it anyway.
It is possible that Houston will overtake Toronto in city proper population but it probably won't be for a loooong time. Toronto has already overtaken Chicago in city proper population (in the same area no less 2.73 million in 243 sq miles). Even if Houston overtakes Chicago and then Toronto in city proper population - I doubt it'll be as dense or urban as either Chicago or Toronto. What would make it harder for Houston to overtake Toronto is like Houston, Toronto is growing like a weed. I think Houston is growing a bit faster but it may have a harder time maintaining such strong growth as Toronto seems to be able to consistently do.
Toronto has a major head start and isn't a growth laggard by any stretch. It packs in over 600K more people in 1/3 the area of Houston in its city proper...... I can't even imagine when Houston will get 2.73 million in an urban core area of 243 sq miles. My money for a minimum of 2 decades is on Toronto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
Canadians relish moving farther front the US and feel more unity with the EU and UK. More and more that is vented on C-D. That educated me. I got a kick out of virtually laughing of Starbucks in Asian to European cities as their local fare is just ----->sooooo far superior. May be true of course, but it was a SLIGHT aimed to things AMERICAN. Far more then that company itself.
Truth is when I go to another country I don't want to drink Starbucks! I want to drink a locally sourced coffee beans from a local place. So if I go to Thailand why would I want Starbucks coffee or eat KFC? I can do that in the U.S or Canada. Wawee coffee in Thailand is better than Starbucks though and at half the cost - don't believe me go to Chiang Mai in Thailand and get back to me about that
As for Canadians relishing moving farther from the U.S there may be some truth to this from a political perspective but not from a people perspective. There are too many links between Canadians and Americans both culturally, linguistically and from a values perspective that we would ever feel far from you. We may not always be a fan of your politics or every aspect of your system but we certainly feel a strong affinity with the American people more than any other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
I do enjoy reading all the underlying passive/AGGRESSIVE notions on Canada's vexing its superiority from its cities to newly defining its culture separating it from the US. Just in the end. I'd say unity would win. But till then its some desire a virtual WALL the US/Canada border too. A cultural especially.
I don't get this underlying 'passive/aggressive' notion. Human beings are not always logical beings we are emotional and that very fact means we have a variety of emotions on display. There are cultural differences between our two countries but also similarities too.. There will never be a wall between the U.S and Canada and even if you continue to elect protectionist and isolationist leadership - I think there will always be a strong cultural and trading bond between the two nations but Canada has learned that it can't put all its eggs in one basket economically with the U.S and really I don't see how anyone could blame us..
The fact is however that Canadians by and large do have some important values that are different from you and we want to keep those as they work for us. It doesn't mean that we think our values are superior but they work better for us and why should we acquiesce those values to make you feel better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
I still say you can have Justin Bieber back?
Justin Bieber wouldn't have become the pop culture success he is in Canada as he has in the U.S. You created him - YOU keep him
Last edited by fusion2; 04-29-2017 at 05:34 PM..
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I liked your Toronto pictures in the one thread. Got a smirk seeing TRUMPS name in lights. On his Toronto hotel high-rise there on the one photo.....
