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View Poll Results: Seattle's urban form is closer to?
Los Angeles 15 28.85%
San Diego 37 71.15%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-10-2017, 02:02 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironcouger View Post
The streetcar lines in seattle are at grade but the future extensions of light rail are underground or elevated. The first line was partially at grade and has had several problems.
Look at the maps of the extensions, it shows a lot of segments with at-grade tracks.
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Old 07-10-2017, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
216 posts, read 116,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward234 View Post
Well, Seattle's MSA (includes King, Pierce, and Snohomish Counties) has just under 4 million people and the combined daily weekday transit ridership for the four largest transit agencies in the MSA is 615,000 riders per day riding either bus or rail. And that's excluding the 60,000 that commute by ferry or water taxi. Pound for pound Seattle beats both San Diego and LA handily in terms of transit mode share.
For a metro area of close to 4 million population, those are excellent ridership numbers. For LA, with a metro population of over 16 million, we have a long way to go before reaching our ridership goals. But the future looks good. The LA Metropolitan Transit Authority (MTA) light rail and subway lines only cover LA County. MetroLink trains cover the 5 county area and their ridership averages are not included in the aforementioned ridership averages put out by LA MTA.

Once you throw in Amtrack trains into the mix, which traverse back and forth between LA and San Diego 8 times a day, and is used by many commuters, the ridership numbers increase for both cities. With the number of amusement parks and other points of interest in both cities, Amtrack ridership numbers are highest on weekends.

Last edited by Happy in L.A.; 07-10-2017 at 04:31 PM..
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Old 07-10-2017, 04:27 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Metrolink is like 50K which pathetic for a 500-mile+ system.
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward234 View Post
Well, Seattle's MSA (includes King, Pierce, and Snohomish Counties) has just under 4 million people and the combined daily weekday transit ridership for the four largest transit agencies in the MSA is 615,000 riders per day riding either bus or rail. And that's excluding the 60,000 that commute by ferry or water taxi. Pound for pound Seattle beats both San Diego and LA handily in terms of transit mode share.
https://media.metro.net/riding_metro...system_map.pdf
I hope you understand that LA's MTA covers the city and partially some outlying communities. LA city is about 4 million people, and most suburban/ satellite cities have their own bus system. Examples would be Long Beach, Foothill Transit, Orange County's Transit District, Torrance, San Bernardino-Onmi, and Riverside.

So if you want to compare apples to apples, why not just use the area and population that LA's largest agency's covers, which is mostly the city. Let's not add all of the other regional area population that MTA does serve.

Last edited by LA Fan; 07-10-2017 at 10:52 PM..
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Old 07-10-2017, 10:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
San Diego has had a dedicated transit funding source, Transnet, since the late 80's so much of it is funded through that. Also Seattle's light rail extensions are not completely grade-separated, many segments are at-grade.
Aside from MLK, the parts that are at-grade are not in traffic at all (they're generally off the road) and a lot of the at-grade you're seeing is in the median of the highways out in the suburbs. Within the city itself (The Northgate, West Seattle, and Ballard lines) all the lines are tunneled or elevated.

Last edited by Edward234; 07-10-2017 at 10:59 PM..
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Old 07-10-2017, 11:06 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward234 View Post
Aside from MLK, the parts that are at-grade are not in traffic at all (they're generally off the road) and a lot of the at-grade you're seeing is in the median of the highways out in the suburbs. Within the city itself (The Northgate, West Seattle, and Ballard lines) all the lines are tunneled or elevated.
Ok? I never claimed they shared a right-of-way with traffic. None of San Diego's system is in traffic either.
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Old 07-11-2017, 12:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
Ok? I never claimed they shared a right-of-way with traffic. None of San Diego's system is in traffic either.
Running at-grade through congested areas is always slower and less reliable than grade separated. Within Seattle proper, aside from MLK, it's all grade separated. Also, at grade along a highway allows for higher speeds and there is a big difference between "in the median with its own right of way" at grade and "completely separated from the road" at grade.
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Old 07-11-2017, 09:40 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward234 View Post
Running at-grade through congested areas is always slower and less reliable than grade separated. Within Seattle proper, aside from MLK, it's all grade separated. Also, at grade along a highway allows for higher speeds and there is a big difference between "in the median with its own right of way" at grade and "completely separated from the road" at grade.
I'm not really sure why you're bothering to tell me this, I'm very aware how light rail and grade separation works. Also not sure why you all of a suddenly are just focusing on Seattle proper when before you were talking about all of its extensions which go out into the suburbs. You claimed those were all grade-separated and that is not true. Also more than just MLK is at-grade, the section south of downtown around the stadium southward is at-grade with multiple street crossings.
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Old 07-11-2017, 01:48 PM
 
429 posts, read 277,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sav858 View Post
I'm not really sure why you're bothering to tell me this, I'm very aware how light rail and grade separation works. Also not sure why you all of a suddenly are just focusing on Seattle proper when before you were talking about all of its extensions which go out into the suburbs. You claimed those were all grade-separated and that is not true. Also more than just MLK is at-grade, the section south of downtown around the stadium southward is at-grade with multiple street crossings.
The extensions include far more than just going into the suburbs. There are three extensions/new lines funded within the city, including a second subway tunnel through downtown. But you're right that it was incorrect to imply the entire system is grade-separated. What is true is that all new lines through Seattle are grade-separated, and all of the existing line aside from MLK, and as you mentioned, SODO, is grade-separated. The reason I keep harping on MLK is because it's the one section of the system in Seattle where the light rail actually has to slow down significantly and where street crossings cause a problem. SODO is technically at-grade but because it's through an industrial area and separated from the road it barely affects speed and reliability.

As for the suburbs, while running in a highway median is technically at-grade, it's not the problematic type of at-grade that dramatically slows down the system in places like Portland, San Diego, Denver and other cities with more traditional light rail. That was my larger point (which admittedly, I may not have been clear about) - Seattle's system is fundamentally different than those systems, and speed and reliability are closer to that of a heavy rail system.
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Old 07-11-2017, 02:19 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward234 View Post
The extensions include far more than just going into the suburbs. There are three extensions/new lines funded within the city, including a second subway tunnel through downtown. But you're right that it was incorrect to imply the entire system is grade-separated. What is true is that all new lines through Seattle are grade-separated, and all of the existing line aside from MLK, and as you mentioned, SODO, is grade-separated. The reason I keep harping on MLK is because it's the one section of the system in Seattle where the light rail actually has to slow down significantly and where street crossings cause a problem. SODO is technically at-grade but because it's through an industrial area and separated from the road it barely affects speed and reliability.

As for the suburbs, while running in a highway median is technically at-grade, it's not the problematic type of at-grade that dramatically slows down the system in places like Portland, San Diego, Denver and other cities with more traditional light rail. That was my larger point (which admittedly, I may not have been clear about) - Seattle's system is fundamentally different than those systems, and speed and reliability are closer to that of a heavy rail system.
Not all of the at-grade sections are in the median of freeways.

Sure it's a mix in between the two types of systems but not sure if I would say it's "fundamentally different" and closer to heavy rail. 48 minutes to travel 20 miles isn't exactly impressive nor that heavy rail like.
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