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Old 08-29-2017, 07:59 AM
 
6,297 posts, read 13,187,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirrob View Post
"and then the ghetto is everywhere else, until the suburbs"

You lost me right there...

You really are clueless, aren't you?
Instead of attacking me, why don't you refute the crime maps? What great neighborhood 5 miles from downtown Indy would you be dying to live in?

Rutter: Indy crime wave rising on Gary thug exodus - Post-Tribune
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Old 08-29-2017, 09:38 AM
 
1,480 posts, read 1,289,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter1948 View Post
Instead of attacking me, why don't you refute the crime maps? What great neighborhood 5 miles from downtown Indy would you be dying to live in?

Rutter: Indy crime wave rising on Gary thug exodus - Post-Tribune
That article is 18 months old. 2017 crime rates have been lower thus far.

Here's a year old article you neglected to post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b07f20daa10866

Last edited by Dyadic; 08-29-2017 at 10:22 AM.. Reason: clarity
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:00 AM
 
1,480 posts, read 1,289,508 times
Reputation: 1486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter1948 View Post
Yes sir.

https://www.trulia.com/for_sale/39.7..._zm/#map-crime

Indy's development has a "ring of fire pattern." That 2 to 3-7 mile radius has dozens of homes listed for under 10,000. Granted, it's true lots of cities have this, but often it is isolated to one side of town. In Indy, the problem is there is downtown, and then the ghetto is everywhere else, until the suburbs. You know very well this is true, and you attack me because I expose this truth.

https://www.trulia.com/for_sale/39.6..._zm/#map-crime

The other thing that is interesting is Indy has some suburbs which are pretty bad like near Lawrence. That is almost mini Chicagoesque. Crime in Indy has been a serious problem for years.

And as nice as downtown is, there are muggings, stabbings, shootings, with some regularity. Anecdotally, I almost got mugged outside the Westin last month after a wedding when a guy followed me, demanding money. I am in Indy all the time for work. The south Meridian bar and wholesale bar district has gotten really hood. That was a great scene just 5 years ago.

Indy had twice the downtown of KC 10 years ago. Now, it's a dead heat, but I'd say KC has the edge due to streetcars, and frankly, twice the historic urban building density (even if Indy has more downtown population), especially just south of downtown. Indy has a very suburban development pattern and feel. It's like it was built to be a big city but feels suburban and low density. Much of downtown Indy is filled with 4-10 story cheaply constructed crap like Artistry or Nine on Canal....these buildings will look like crap in 50 years. I'm not singling out Indy for this.... the further south you go, more cities have even more of these particle board crap apartment complexes.

And since I am "biased" and you attribute quotes to me that I do not say, you can attack your local Indy neighbors who agree:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/nine-on-canal-indianapolis

You will find negative review after review for these junk buildings.
You keep chewing on that same ole rag and it is absolutely hilarious. A simple google of Indianapolis 9 on Canal will pull up 73 reviews for a 3.8 review rating. Your Yelp only has 8 reviews.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:00 AM
 
6,297 posts, read 13,187,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyadic View Post
That article is 18 months old. 2017 crime rates have been lower thus far.

Here's a year old article you neglected to post.

The Most Dangerous Cities In America | HuffPost
What is your point? Indy is 13th most violent city and KC is 10 there. I never claimed KC was safe either. The two cities are about the same in crime. But KCs urban form, art, architecture, transit....really everything about KC is much better than Indy.

KC is more like a cross between Indy and Cincinnati and that's a good thing
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:08 PM
 
Location: East Side, Indianapolis
191 posts, read 151,617 times
Reputation: 269
This is in response to Peter1948's post...I can't reply directly as he's been placed on my ignore list. One can only take so many lies and falsehoods. His latest post might be the most pig-ignorant thing I've read on here in a while. He has stated on other threads that he detests Indianapolis, so his posts on the subject should be taken with a truckload of salt.

Indy's development does not have a "ring of fire" pattern. Examining his statement, he mentions that everything between downtown and the suburbs is a wasteland, calling it a ghetto even. This is patently false. Here are some examples:

The near northside neighborhoods of Meridian Kessler, South Broad Ripple, Broad Ripple, Butler Tarkington, Meridian Hills and several others I'm sure I'm forgetting, are essentially merged into one large, prosperous urban neighborhood. Many of these neighborhoods are what's referred to as "street car suburbs", but are considered to be quite urban by today's standards. The combination of these neighborhoods covers roughly 18 square miles and stretches from 38th St on the south, the White River on the west, Keystone on the east and up to roughly 79th Street on the north. There are no pockets of distress in any of these 18 square miles. There are many neighborhood commercial nodes within this area filled with places unique to the city. And how does this relate to Peter's claim of the city being bombed out 3-7 miles from downtown? This area is exactly 3 miles north of downtown on it's southern edge and 7 miles north on it's northern edge. Funny that...

On a larger scale, I'd highlight College Ave from its terminus in Fletcher Place up to where the more suburban environs take over, near Park Tudor. This 9 mile stretch of road is nothing but cool "hipster" spots, urban living, street car suburb neighborhoods and everything in between. There's not a bad block to be found there any longer. Many cities would love to have a road of contiguous development that covers such a large part of the city.

On Indy's east side is the neighborhood of Irvington, which covers roughly 2.5 square miles. The neighborhood is anchored by a highly successful commercial node along Washington Street, has it's own highly rated school system, has a massive city park with public pool, a very nice golf course and is home to many festivals and events throughout the year. Irvington trends a bit older than some of the northside neighborhoods, but the residents there are a bit on the...unique...side. Distance from downtown? 3.3 miles, extending to about 5 miles on it's eastern edge. Additionally, the Washington Street corridor between downtown and Irvington is rapidly improving, by Indianapolis' standards.

To the west, we have the town of Speedway, which while being known primarily as the home of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, it's also a separate neighborhood with it's own identity. Residential construction took place during the early automobile area, so it's not urban per say, but it is unique within Indianapolis. Speedway's Main Street has undergone a complete transformation and is now a destination itself. Speedway's revitalization is still in it's early stages, but things are looking incredibly promising. Distance from downtown? 3.08 miles, with it's western border roughly 8 miles away from downtown.

Seeing a trend here yet? I certainly do...Funny how Peter's claims turned out to be exactly opposite of the reality on the ground.

Southside neighborhoods are a weak point for Indy, and the west side is also not moving ahead at a strong pace with the exception of the Speedway area. Many of these areas were post-war suburbs and even much newer than that and lack the bones of some of the older neighborhoods.

Lets talk a bit about downtown...a place that Peter claims is crime-ridden. Would we attract so many large national and international conventions if our downtown had a crime problem? Would we be in the regular rotation to host some of the largest sporting events in the nation if patrons didn't feel safe here? This is one of the more bizarre claims I've seen him make. Indy's downtown is often criticized for being too sterile, too safe. I'm sure Peter has made that claim before himself. So which is it?

Unfortunately, I must concede that some of the newer downtown developments lack unique character. They're not bad, but many of them don't stand out. We're happy to have them of course. But, the city is beginning to demand higher standards and is attracting a great deal of interest from developers. The "Bottleworks" project at the former Coca-Cola bottling plant at the northeast end of Mass Ave is a great example of the quality we're starting to see.

Peter mentioned the area south of Lawrence as a trouble spot...and he's right. Post Road, from I-70 on the south up to Pendleton Pike looks like a war zone these days. Lawrence itself is a gem though, and is incredibly unique for any city, let alone Indianapolis. There are many pockets of the city that need attention, like any other city.

One thing I find fascinating, and a bit troubling if I'm being honest, is Peter's problem with our rough spots being so spread out rather than confined to a few large wastelands. That's because Indianapolis has been recognized in many studies as being one of the least segregated cities in the US. A University of Wisconsin study recognized Indy as the least segregated city in the northern United States. The good thing about that is that nearly every neighborhood in the city stands a chance of making a comeback sooner or later. None of the bad spots have impossible challenges to overcome. Our "peer" cities in our region, like KC, Louisville, Cincinnati and others are always recognized as being some of the most segregated cities in America. Peter believes this is a good thing. He would much rather enjoy his "cool" "hipster" neighborhoods as far away from the undesirables of these cities as he can. Attitudes like that indicate some seriously troubling undertones.

I'll close by saying this...trust nothing that this poster says about Indianapolis. He's got an ax to grind. I don't know why, and don't particularly care. I'm done engaging with him on the subject.

Kansas City...I love you. Your downtown is beautiful, your neighborhoods are beautiful, and I swear you won't see fountains more beautiful than the ones in KC on this continent. Great people, great food, great sports culture...what's not to love. I'd call it home in a hot second. If Indy weren't home, I'd probably chose you over Indy. But you know what they say about home...and I certainly won't let lies about this place go unchallenged any longer.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:13 PM
 
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This thread has only made me want to get back to Indianapolis (for a visit) sooner.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC area
10,705 posts, read 18,513,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPonteKC View Post
This thread has only made me want to get back to Indianapolis (for a visit) sooner.
Was just there.

Indy continues to do some great things, some things much better than KC. The dedicated bike lanes are great as is the general available recreation downtown and along the river. The continue to invest in hospitality (Airport, hotels, convention center etc) and it has paid off as they are a significant convention town for their size.

They don't have the historic building stock that KC has. KC has a great mix of new and re-purposed that Indy can't really compete with with, but Indy does have parts of downtown that are really building up nicely.

Indy has some of the same problems that KC has too. (other than crime). All the jobs are in the burbs. Driving around the beltway during rush hour was an eye opener as to just how large the metro is and how many of the jobs are outside the core of the city (even if they still might be in the city limits).

I still think KC offers more as far as amenities and I also think that while Indy's downtown was better than KC's up till recently, I think Downtown KC will pass Indy if it hasn't already. If you include areas outside of central Downtown KC, then KC is considerably ahead of Indy. Metro size, growth etc, they are pretty close.

Last edited by kcmo; 08-29-2017 at 03:39 PM..
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:19 PM
 
Location: East Side, Indianapolis
191 posts, read 151,617 times
Reputation: 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcmo View Post
Was just there.

Indy continues to do some great things, some things much better than KC. The dedicated bike lanes are great as is the general available recreation downtown and along the river. The continue to invest in hospitality (Airport, hotels, convention center etc) and it has paid off as they are a significant convention town for their size.

They don't have the historic building stock that KC has. KC has a great mix of new and re-purposed that Indy can't really compete with with, but Indy does have parts of downtown that are really building up nicely.

Indy has some of the same problems that KC has too. (other than crime). All the jobs are in the burbs. Driving around the beltway during rush hour was an eye opener as to just how large the metro is and how many of the jobs are outside the core of the city (even if they still might be in the city limits).

I still think KC offers more as far as amenities and I also think that while Indy's downtown was better than KC's up till recently, I think Downtown KC will pass Indy if it hasn't already. If you include areas outside of central Downtown KC, then KC is considerably ahead of Indy. Metro size, growth etc, they are pretty close.
Can't really disagree with any of that. Next time you're here I'd recommend spending some time in some of the neighborhoods adjacent to downtown that are rapidly redeveloping...especially on the near east, southeast and south sides. Thats the kind of thing that's been happening in cities all over the country, but it's finally began to happen here. It doesn't hurt having one of HGTV's most popular shows driving so much interest in those areas.

I've always felt that KC, Indy and Columbus are triplet cities...roughly the same size and each with their own strengths that the others don't possess, and each of them have consistently succeeded over the last few decades while the older peer cities in the region have had their ups and downs. All three are currently experiencing some growing pains and are slowly gaining national attention. None of them will be considered "cool" anytime soon, but that has not and will not be a hinderance to their future success.
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:21 PM
 
6,297 posts, read 13,187,373 times
Reputation: 2789
Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralCarmel View Post
This is in response to Peter1948's post...I can't reply directly as he's been placed on my ignore list. One can only take so many lies and falsehoods. His latest post might be the most pig-ignorant thing I've read on here in a while. He has stated on other threads that he detests Indianapolis, so his posts on the subject should be taken with a truckload of salt.

Indy's development does not have a "ring of fire" pattern. Examining his statement, he mentions that everything between downtown and the suburbs is a wasteland, calling it a ghetto even. This is patently false. Here are some examples:

The near northside neighborhoods of Meridian Kessler, South Broad Ripple, Broad Ripple, Butler Tarkington, Meridian Hills and several others I'm sure I'm forgetting, are essentially merged into one large, prosperous urban neighborhood. Many of these neighborhoods are what's referred to as "street car suburbs", but are considered to be quite urban by today's standards. The combination of these neighborhoods covers roughly 18 square miles and stretches from 38th St on the south, the White River on the west, Keystone on the east and up to roughly 79th Street on the north. There are no pockets of distress in any of these 18 square miles. There are many neighborhood commercial nodes within this area filled with places unique to the city. And how does this relate to Peter's claim of the city being bombed out 3-7 miles from downtown? This area is exactly 3 miles north of downtown on it's southern edge and 7 miles north on it's northern edge. Funny that...

On a larger scale, I'd highlight College Ave from its terminus in Fletcher Place up to where the more suburban environs take over, near Park Tudor. This 9 mile stretch of road is nothing but cool "hipster" spots, urban living, street car suburb neighborhoods and everything in between. There's not a bad block to be found there any longer. Many cities would love to have a road of contiguous development that covers such a large part of the city.

On Indy's east side is the neighborhood of Irvington, which covers roughly 2.5 square miles. The neighborhood is anchored by a highly successful commercial node along Washington Street, has it's own highly rated school system, has a massive city park with public pool, a very nice golf course and is home to many festivals and events throughout the year. Irvington trends a bit older than some of the northside neighborhoods, but the residents there are a bit on the...unique...side. Distance from downtown? 3.3 miles, extending to about 5 miles on it's eastern edge. Additionally, the Washington Street corridor between downtown and Irvington is rapidly improving, by Indianapolis' standards.

To the west, we have the town of Speedway, which while being known primarily as the home of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, it's also a separate neighborhood with it's own identity. Residential construction took place during the early automobile area, so it's not urban per say, but it is unique within Indianapolis. Speedway's Main Street has undergone a complete transformation and is now a destination itself. Speedway's revitalization is still in it's early stages, but things are looking incredibly promising. Distance from downtown? 3.08 miles, with it's western border roughly 8 miles away from downtown.

Seeing a trend here yet? I certainly do...Funny how Peter's claims turned out to be exactly opposite of the reality on the ground.

Southside neighborhoods are a weak point for Indy, and the west side is also not moving ahead at a strong pace with the exception of the Speedway area. Many of these areas were post-war suburbs and even much newer than that and lack the bones of some of the older neighborhoods.

Lets talk a bit about downtown...a place that Peter claims is crime-ridden. Would we attract so many large national and international conventions if our downtown had a crime problem? Would we be in the regular rotation to host some of the largest sporting events in the nation if patrons didn't feel safe here? This is one of the more bizarre claims I've seen him make. Indy's downtown is often criticized for being too sterile, too safe. I'm sure Peter has made that claim before himself. So which is it?

Unfortunately, I must concede that some of the newer downtown developments lack unique character. They're not bad, but many of them don't stand out. We're happy to have them of course. But, the city is beginning to demand higher standards and is attracting a great deal of interest from developers. The "Bottleworks" project at the former Coca-Cola bottling plant at the northeast end of Mass Ave is a great example of the quality we're starting to see.

Peter mentioned the area south of Lawrence as a trouble spot...and he's right. Post Road, from I-70 on the south up to Pendleton Pike looks like a war zone these days. Lawrence itself is a gem though, and is incredibly unique for any city, let alone Indianapolis. There are many pockets of the city that need attention, like any other city.

One thing I find fascinating, and a bit troubling if I'm being honest, is Peter's problem with our rough spots being so spread out rather than confined to a few large wastelands. That's because Indianapolis has been recognized in many studies as being one of the least segregated cities in the US. A University of Wisconsin study recognized Indy as the least segregated city in the northern United States. The good thing about that is that nearly every neighborhood in the city stands a chance of making a comeback sooner or later. None of the bad spots have impossible challenges to overcome. Our "peer" cities in our region, like KC, Louisville, Cincinnati and others are always recognized as being some of the most segregated cities in America. Peter believes this is a good thing. He would much rather enjoy his "cool" "hipster" neighborhoods as far away from the undesirables of these cities as he can. Attitudes like that indicate some seriously troubling undertones.

I'll close by saying this...trust nothing that this poster says about Indianapolis. He's got an ax to grind. I don't know why, and don't particularly care. I'm done engaging with him on the subject.

Kansas City...I love you. Your downtown is beautiful, your neighborhoods are beautiful, and I swear you won't see fountains more beautiful than the ones in KC on this continent. Great people, great food, great sports culture...what's not to love. I'd call it home in a hot second. If Indy weren't home, I'd probably chose you over Indy. But you know what they say about home...and I certainly won't let lies about this place go unchallenged any longer.
Wrong, buddy.

The neighborhoods you mentioned are effectively suburbs, even though they are older. And they are all more than 5 miles from downtown. FACT. I was not speaking of those neighborhoods which are MORE than 5 miles from downtown. Meridian Hills is very nice. Broad Ripple is nice but no better than similar neighborhoods in metros as small as Little Rock or Columbia. It cannot compare to counterculture areas in a place like KC.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Meri...68!2d39.768403

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Meri...68!2d39.768403

Also, the south part of Meridian-Kessler is questionable. Still, it is more than 5 miles. So your post, if anything, is confirming Indy's donut development pattern.

I own property in several diverse neighborhoods in 3 cities. A racist, I am not, and I will not allow you to call me that. You are an Indy booster. That's great. But at least admit it. Admit that outside downtown, you must pass through miles of decrepid housing in all directions until you get to nicer areas, particularly on all sides but the north. Even there, it gets very bad very quick. I have been aggressively panhandled INSIDE the McDonald's next to the Cathedral (beautiful old building).

I know Indy. I know it well. And I don't hate it at all. I just don't like it. And that is allowed! I have said time and again that although I don't like the amount of chains and the sterility of the apartment complexes, people seem to like it and they have had one of the best downtowns in the Midwest outside Chicago for decades. That means something. Also, this thread has nothing to do with cities surrounding Indianapolis or their development patterns. Relax. No one is attacking your precious Indy. I am only presenting data you don't like.

Again, outside downtown and neighborhoods connected to it, explain how Indy does not have a donut shell pattern of development? I could go to the Fashion Mall tomorrow (great mall btw) and ask 5 people and they'd all agree. Why do you intend to portray Indy differently here?
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:19 PM
 
Location: East Side, Indianapolis
191 posts, read 151,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter1948 View Post
Wrong, buddy.

The neighborhoods you mentioned are effectively suburbs, even though they are older. And they are all more than 5 miles from downtown. FACT. I was not speaking of those neighborhoods which are MORE than 5 miles from downtown. Meridian Hills is very nice. Broad Ripple is nice but no better than similar neighborhoods in metros as small as Little Rock or Columbia. It cannot compare to counterculture areas in a place like KC.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Meri...68!2d39.768403

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Meri...68!2d39.768403

Also, the south part of Meridian-Kessler is questionable. Still, it is more than 5 miles. So your post, if anything, is confirming Indy's donut development pattern.

I own property in several diverse neighborhoods in 3 cities. A racist, I am not, and I will not allow you to call me that. You are an Indy booster. That's great. But at least admit it. Admit that outside downtown, you must pass through miles of decrepid housing in all directions until you get to nicer areas, particularly on all sides but the north. Even there, it gets very bad very quick. I have been aggressively panhandled INSIDE the McDonald's next to the Cathedral (beautiful old building).

I know Indy. I know it well. And I don't hate it at all. I just don't like it. And that is allowed! I have said time and again that although I don't like the amount of chains and the sterility of the apartment complexes, people seem to like it and they have had one of the best downtowns in the Midwest outside Chicago for decades. That means something. Also, this thread has nothing to do with cities surrounding Indianapolis or their development patterns. Relax. No one is attacking your precious Indy. I am only presenting data you don't like.

Again, outside downtown and neighborhoods connected to it, explain how Indy does not have a donut shell pattern of development? I could go to the Fashion Mall tomorrow (great mall btw) and ask 5 people and they'd all agree. Why do you intend to portray Indy differently here?
Against my better judgement...UNSHUNNED.

Yet another misleading post from Peter. Please keep digging yourself a deeper hole...I'll lend you a shovel if you'd like.

The distance measurements you used show a complete ignorance about everything Indianapolis. Do you ever make it north of Greenwood when you come up here? Your first measurement goes from monument circle to Meridian Hills...completely bypassing the three immediately adjacent neighborhoods to the south of that area that are miles closer to downtown. If you spent any time in that area at all, you'd know they have been 100% revitalized and form essentially one large neighborhood. You don't know when you leave one neighborhood and enter the other anymore...there's no sketchy transition zones anymore. 18 square miles of old (by Indy standards) city neighborhood's and thriving commercial districts. You should find a clue and check it out sometime.

Your other map measures from monument circle to a random center point in Meridian Kessler, completely ignoring the fact that neighborhood begins many blocks south of that...a mile closer to downtown at least. You were the one that made the claim that the city was a hollowed out wasteland from 3-7 miles out from downtown. You contradict yourself with your own maps. The south part of Meridian Kessler is certainly not questionable. Butler Tarkington, south of Meridian Kessler isn't really questionable anymore either. Homes in BT are going for several times what they did just 3-4 years ago, and there are bidding wars for those properties. If you knew Indy well, you'd know this.

You completely ignored Irvington and Speedway...I'll grant hat Speedway is more suburban, but on the older side of suburban. How about you map those out from downtown. Can you even define what downtown Indianapolis actually consists of geographically?

Hey...you were the one who claims that desegregated neighborhood's are a bad thing and you prefer cities that have large, bad, segregated neighborhood's away from the hipster enclaves. That's your stated preference in an earlier post. I'd imagine that viewpoint is informed by your current location...one of the more segregated cities in our region.

Please drive up College Ave from Fletcher Place to Nora and show me miles and miles of decrepit city neighborhood's. Or Meridian, going both north and south. Hell, even Washington Street isn't like that anymore. Fall Creek Parkway going northeast? A rough block here or there, but largely doing very well.

And you really want to solicit opinions from shoppers at the Fashio Mall on what they think of Indianapolis' city neighborhood's? As if that would be a valid sample. I know you don't have a mall like that in your city and likely can't relate to the kind of folks who shop there, but they'd be the first to tell you that any urban neighborhood in the US would be a drug infested murderers row. Ask a shopper at the Fashion Mall what they'd have to say about your town...they'd tell you it's full of toothless rednecks one generation removed from the moonshine stills of Appalachia. They'd also be wrong about that...just like they'd be wrong about lots of things.

I'm not an Indy booster...I'll throw it under the bus when it's warranted. If you bothered to read all of my previous post before you started frothing at the mouth, you'd see that I'd objectively pick KC over Indy. I also own property in another city, roughly 2,000 miles due southwest of Indy. I definitely prefer that place over Indy. I prefer roughly half a dozen cities in the Midwest alone over Indy. But what I will no longer tolerate are posts from people like you who have demonstrated incredible bias against the city for no reason whatsoever.

In the words of Dwight Schrute...RESHUNNED.
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