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View Poll Results: Which would you prefer?
Louisville 13 10.57%
Richmond 25 20.33%
New Orleans 13 10.57%
Hartford 5 4.07%
Salt Lake 30 24.39%
Birmingham 7 5.69%
Buffalo 11 8.94%
Rochester 5 4.07%
Grand Rapids 6 4.88%
Tucson 8 6.50%
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-11-2017, 03:53 PM
 
Location: California x North Carolina (soon)...
3,322 posts, read 2,246,018 times
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Here is the thing:

We're having a different discussion if one wants to talk about cities that anchor larger regions than their stated MSAs. Listen, we all know how the feds tabulate MSA designations, but we also know that MSA calculations is very fluid from metro to metro. There is some holes in MSA, though I, like most others, accept it as the most usable source to gauge city size. We all realize there are many other ways to weigh connectivity between neighboring parts, than just commuting figures...

Buffalo and Rochester may not be as connected to each other as Raleigh and Durham but I can't figure it's less connected than Salt Lake, Ogden, and Provo. Buffalo and Rochester have plenty threads if connectivity. So do Hampton Roads and Richmond. On and on and on...

Yes, if we're talking CSA, The Triangle and Greater Salt Lake embody much larger geographic populations, but the same can be said for the Inland Empire. When talking about cities.....Raleigh, North Carolina does not even feel as large as Indy or Cleveland, which are two cities on the smaller end of their respective tier, and I'm using Indy and Cleveland as examples because they are virtually the same size as CSA Triangle. Neither does Raleigh have a GDP anywhere close to those two cities (GDP Raleigh is in the 70-billions, while GDPs Cleveland and Indy are in the 120s and 130s)...

So while the CSA stat is a point of fact, functionally and realistically the city of Raleigh, not Raleigh-Durham but Raleigh, performs as a city much, much more comparable to most of the cities in the OP, than to even a single city at its CSA weight, because the CSA weight isn't "Raleigh"...

The same argument can be made for Buffalo. One could say Buffalo is truly 1.5-1.6 million, but that just means it still performs as a city more comparable to the cities in this thread than to cities over 2 million...

I don't know much about Salt Lake but I wouldn't be surprised if the same dynamic is at play there...
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:08 PM
 
8,642 posts, read 8,781,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Here is the thing:

We're having a different discussion if one wants to talk about cities that anchor larger regions than their stated MSAs. Listen, we all know how the feds tabulate MSA designations, but we also know that MSA calculations is very fluid from metro to metro. There is some holes in MSA, though I, like most others, accept it as the most usable source to gauge city size. We all realize there are many other ways to weigh connectivity between neighboring parts, than just commuting figures...

Buffalo and Rochester may not be as connected to each other as Raleigh and Durham but I can't figure it's less connected than Salt Lake, Ogden, and Provo. Buffalo and Rochester have plenty threads if connectivity. So do Hampton Roads and Richmond. On and on and on...

Yes, if we're talking CSA, The Triangle and Greater Salt Lake embody much larger geographic populations, but the same can be said for the Inland Empire. When talking about cities.....Raleigh, North Carolina does not even feel as large as Indy or Cleveland, which are two cities on the smaller end of their respective tier, and I'm using Indy and Cleveland as examples because they are virtually the same size as CSA Triangle. Neither does Raleigh have a GDP anywhere close to those two cities (GDP Raleigh is in the 70-billions, while GDPs Cleveland and Indy are in the 120s and 130s)...

So while the CSA stat is a point of fact, functionally and realistically the city of Raleigh, not Raleigh-Durham but Raleigh, performs as a city much, much more comparable to most of the cities in the OP, than to even a single city at its CSA weight, because the CSA weight isn't "Raleigh"...

The same argument can be made for Buffalo. One could say Buffalo is truly 1.5-1.6 million, but that just means it still performs as a city more comparable to the cities in this thread than to cities over 2 million...

I don't know much about Salt Lake but I wouldn't be surprised if the same dynamic is at play there...
Yes but the Census Bureau measures America, thus border towns with development on both sides of the border get legitimately shortchanged. Its not "this county does not met the specifications but it sure seems like it belongs to xxx". Its "Its not measured because a national entity is measuring the American part of a Bi-national metro" Fort Erie and Niagara Falls ON would be in Buffalo's MSA if it were in America. Probably the same for Windsor, ON for Detroit. 15+% of Sabres Season ticket holders are Canadian. So to say 300,000-400,000 Canadians live in the "Buffalo Area" is legit. If you've ever been to Buffalo you would see a similar proportion 20-25% of the plates are Ontario ones
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:30 PM
 
52,652 posts, read 75,502,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Yes but the Census Bureau measures America, thus border towns with development on both sides of the border get legitimately shortchanged. Its not "this county does not met the specifications but it sure seems like it belongs to xxx". Its "Its not measured because a national entity is measuring the American part of a Bi-national metro" Fort Erie and Niagara Falls ON would be in Buffalo's MSA if it were in America. Probably the same for Windsor, ON for Detroit. 15+% of Sabres Season ticket holders are Canadian. So to say 300,000-400,000 Canadians live in the "Buffalo Area" is legit. If you've ever been to Buffalo you would see a similar proportion 20-25% of the plates are Ontario ones
It is around the same percentage, if not higher in terms of Canadians and the Bills as well. Go Bills, eh? | Niagara Advance

https://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/...wont-slow.html

From another article: The strategy worked as Buffalo increased its season-ticket base from southern Ontario to 18 percent, but the experiment of playing games in Toronto also had a downside: the lack of a true home-field advantage.
Jaguars, Bills have different fan bases and history, but face similar challenges

With this said, I get and agree with what murksiderock is saying, as going to CSA's or regions would bring about a totally different discussion and some places that may be a little over 1.3 million can still be in the same room with these metros to some degree.
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Old 07-11-2017, 04:34 PM
 
Location: California x North Carolina (soon)...
3,322 posts, read 2,246,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
Yes but the Census Bureau measures America, thus border towns with development on both sides of the border get legitimately shortchanged. Its not "this county does not met the specifications but it sure seems like it belongs to xxx". Its "Its not measured because a national entity is measuring the American part of a Bi-national metro" Fort Erie and Niagara Falls ON would be in Buffalo's MSA if it were in America. Probably the same for Windsor, ON for Detroit. 15+% of Sabres Season ticket holders are Canadian. So to say 300,000-400,000 Canadians live in the "Buffalo Area" is legit. If you've ever been to Buffalo you would see a similar proportion 20-25% of the plates are Ontario ones
Definitely been to Buffalo, was just there two months ago. I don't disagree with anything you said here. All I'm saying is 1.5-1.6 million Buffalo isn't a large enough city to exclude it from a topic of the other cities on here...
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Old 07-11-2017, 05:01 PM
 
Location: South Beach and DT Raleigh
11,543 posts, read 17,893,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
What is interesting about the Buffalo area is that it is only a 2 county metro, with 3 other adjacent areas being just micropolitan areas.

As mentioned before, it does touch the Rochester metro/CSA(Genesee County is actually in Rochester's CSA). So, unless it can add Chautauqua County(Cattaraugus County is in the Buffalo CSA), that is pretty much it for the Buffalo area.

Western NY is similar to say the Triangle or the Triad, but it isn't viewed as a CSA. It is only viewed in terms of a region(with about 2.3-2.7 million people).
By default Google map distances center to center:
Buffalo to Rochester is ~74 miles by straightest line.
Raleigh to Durham is ~22 miles by straightest line (and the two cities actually meet).

The Triad and the Triangle aren't even 74 miles apart. Durham to Greensboro is ~54 miles.
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Old 07-11-2017, 06:53 PM
 
52,652 posts, read 75,502,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnc2mbfl View Post
By default Google map distances center to center:
Buffalo to Rochester is ~74 miles by straightest line.
Raleigh to Durham is ~22 miles by straightest line (and the two cities actually meet).

The Triad and the Triangle aren't even 74 miles apart. Durham to Greensboro is ~54 miles.
Buffalo to Rochester is about an hour/hour and 15 minutes. It only takes about 2 hours and 15-30 minutes from Syracuse to Buffalo, which is roughly 150 miles away.

All of this still doesn't mean that the Buffalo and Rochester areas do not meet. I know for a fact that you can easily get many, if not most Buffalo radio stations in the western suburbs of Rochester and there is just some crossover between the 2 areas.

Also, the land area between the Raleigh-Durham metros combo and the Buffalo-Rochester metros combined isn't that far apart, with the latter only being about 630 square miles bigger. It may even be less given any county adjustments.

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 07-11-2017 at 07:08 PM..
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Old 07-11-2017, 09:20 PM
 
4,989 posts, read 4,489,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlo View Post
I don't know that I would agree with this. As someone who spends a lot time in Louisville I know it has momentum. I'd like to know how far back you'd have to chart developments and what would be included to see how it got to the $10 billion dollar figure. When i'm in Louisville the progress is remarkable, but it does not seem like the most construction or momentum by far.

Please respond with facts, and research the other cities on this list before making these claims instead of resorting to the typical hyperbole.
He's pulling the $9 billion figure from the mayor's state of the city letter. If you read the letter, it's clear the mayor is counting up all spending including things like roads, redoing housing projects, etc.
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Old 07-11-2017, 09:22 PM
 
1,039 posts, read 1,051,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Here is the thing:

We're having a different discussion if one wants to talk about cities that anchor larger regions than their stated MSAs. Listen, we all know how the feds tabulate MSA designations, but we also know that MSA calculations is very fluid from metro to metro. There is some holes in MSA, though I, like most others, accept it as the most usable source to gauge city size. We all realize there are many other ways to weigh connectivity between neighboring parts, than just commuting figures...

Buffalo and Rochester may not be as connected to each other as Raleigh and Durham but I can't figure it's less connected than Salt Lake, Ogden, and Provo. Buffalo and Rochester have plenty threads if connectivity. So do Hampton Roads and Richmond. On and on and on...

Yes, if we're talking CSA, The Triangle and Greater Salt Lake embody much larger geographic populations, but the same can be said for the Inland Empire. When talking about cities.....Raleigh, North Carolina does not even feel as large as Indy or Cleveland, which are two cities on the smaller end of their respective tier, and I'm using Indy and Cleveland as examples because they are virtually the same size as CSA Triangle. Neither does Raleigh have a GDP anywhere close to those two cities (GDP Raleigh is in the 70-billions, while GDPs Cleveland and Indy are in the 120s and 130s)...

So while the CSA stat is a point of fact, functionally and realistically the city of Raleigh, not Raleigh-Durham but Raleigh, performs as a city much, much more comparable to most of the cities in the OP, than to even a single city at its CSA weight, because the CSA weight isn't "Raleigh"...

The same argument can be made for Buffalo. One could say Buffalo is truly 1.5-1.6 million, but that just means it still performs as a city more comparable to the cities in this thread than to cities over 2 million...

I don't know much about Salt Lake but I wouldn't be surprised if the same dynamic is at play there...
Another way to determine if adjacent cities may be considered a common metro is if they fall within the same broadcast TV market. Buffalo and Rochester are different TV markets. Buffalo market also extends south of Rochester into northern Pennsylvania, and into southern Ontario Canada (way beyond MSA or CSA). Just watching the local news, events in Ontario, Southern Tier NY, and northern PA are reported as "local" stories, while Rochester events are few.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:11 AM
 
8,642 posts, read 8,781,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
Another way to determine if adjacent cities may be considered a common metro is if they fall within the same broadcast TV market. Buffalo and Rochester are different TV markets. Buffalo market also extends south of Rochester into northern Pennsylvania, and into southern Ontario Canada (way beyond MSA or CSA). Just watching the local news, events in Ontario, Southern Tier NY, and northern PA are reported as "local" stories, while Rochester events are few.
Rochester and Buffalo are certainly very different. Buffaloians sometimes like to fancy Rochester a suburb of theirs or a satellite city but they are darn close to peers. Although, Buffalo does feel distinctly larger.

Rochester people meanwhile try to find ways they are better than Buffalo (particularly with the arts or Higher Education)

The only metro I can think of that exists with that sort of relationship between core cities would be Dallas/Ft Worth.
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Old 11-08-2017, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Westside Grand Rapids
3,570 posts, read 3,040,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjoseph View Post
All of these rankings I am posting are from the 2017 Metro Monitor from the Brookings Institution. All of the rankings posted next to the city are its rank among the top 100 metro areas.
2005-2015 Economic Growth (total job growth, metro GDP growth, jobs at young companies)
1. Salt Lake City-12th
2. Richmond-29th
3. Louisville-38th
4. Hartford-56th
5. Buffalo-68th
6. Rochester-79th
7. Grand Rapids-81st
8. New Orleans-82nd
9. Birmingham-83rd
10. Tuscon-87th
2005-2015 Prosperity (Income Growth, Wealth)
1. Salt Lake City-13th
2. Buffalo-23rd
3. Louisville-29th
4. Birmingham-47th
5. New Orleans-52nd
6. Hartford-54th
7. Richmond-73rd
8. Grand Rapids-77th
9. Rochester-78th
10. Tuscon-83rd
2005-2015 Inclusion (across-the-board jobs for rich and poor)
1. New Orleans-6th
2. Salt Lake City-15th
3. Buffalo-17th
4. Birmingham-61st
5. Rochester-62nd
6. Hartford-68th
7. Grand Rapids-69th
8. Louisville-77th
9. Richmond-82nd
10. Tuscon-87th
And Per Capita Incomes in 2015 (From American FactFinder)
1. Hartford-36,361
2. Richmond-32,493
3. Rochester-29,608
4. Louisville-28,736
5. Buffalo-28,504
6. Salt Lake City-28,192
7. New Orleans-27,767
8. Birmingham-26,977
9. Grand Rapids-26,384
10. Tuscon-26,164

I think the aforementioned rankings are useful in that they create a holistic picture-more than just job growth in 1 year or building permits over several months. That being said, I think we can safely say Salt Lake City has by far the best economy of these metros, and Tucson has the worst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjoseph View Post
I can also post them from 2010-2015 if people would like...
Did you ever find the 2010-2015 numbers? If not can you provide a link to the source material?
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