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Old 07-20-2017, 01:33 PM
 
1,323 posts, read 676,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys fan in Houston View Post
Personally I think they do with the exception of Detroit. Detroit is actually an awesome city that takes unnecessary heat but still offers to much. Cleveland on the other hand gets pass after pass despite being smaller than Detroit, less international, less diverse, and just as down trodden. Both cities are going through a renaissance and its great that they are, but why Cleveland gets pass after pass and Detroit doesnt is beyond me.
If you saw a 7' guy standing next to a 6'7" guy you'd probably think that 7' guy is huge and ignore the 6'7" guy, who is also really tall. Detroit next to Cleveland probably has a similar effect.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Westside Grand Rapids
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_General View Post
If you saw a 7' guy standing next to a 6'7" guy you'd probably think that 7' guy is huge and ignore the 6'7" guy, who is also really tall. Detroit next to Cleveland probably has a similar effect.
Only an observer from Cleveland would possess the size dysmorphic vision necessary to conclude they were that close in height to begin with.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4 View Post
People, I think tend to give, particularly rustbelt, legacy cities more credit than they deserve when it comes to urbanity.

An example I have is if you look at the inner core densities of Austin and Cleveland, they are actually pretty similar. (in 2010, Austin has grown 20% since then).
Mapping the 2010 U.S. Census - NYTimes.com
But the perceptions are kind of opposite, Austin is seen as a sprawl heavy city, while Cleveland is lauded for its urbanity and density.

Midwest cities like Cleveland, Detroit, Cincinnati or Kansas City are closer to Austin or Charlotte in core density than Providence or Baltimore.

Now some, like Pittsburgh and Chicago (particularly the latter) have sizable regions of 20k ppsm or so and are much more dense in the core than their sunbelt counterparts.
An interesting way to try and measure urbanity could be to begin at a point common to most major cities' CBD (perhaps city hall) and use street view to measure how far a person may travel continuously within an "urban" environment. I would propose that a guideline could be that the area be walkable, greater than 90 percent properties built out with no more than 25 percent street-fronted parking on a given block. Also, no loop-backs toward the starting point - must always travel outward.

Perhaps can go from the starting point to each compass point as a rough measure, although obviously cities like Chicago have a natural barrier in one direction. But, going to the N, W and S can give 3 good directions for measurement.

Major highways, unless they are raised or sunken to allow pedestrians, businesses or residences continuity (like Goose Hollow area of Portland) all represent a barrier to "urbanity."

I'm going to try it on a couple of new and legacy cities and see how this works.

Last edited by RocketSci; 07-20-2017 at 02:36 PM..
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:49 PM
 
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A number of cities have water fronts.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:58 PM
 
1,039 posts, read 1,051,244 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
An interesting way to try and measure urbanity could be to begin at a point common to most major cities' CBD (perhaps city hall) and use street view to measure how far a person may travel continuously within an "urban" environment. I would propose that a guideline could be that the area be walkable, greater than 90 percent properties built out with no more than 25 percent street-fronted parking on a given block. Also, no loop-backs toward the starting point - must always travel outward.

Perhaps can go from the starting point to each compass point as a rough measure, although obviously cities like Chicago have a natural barrier in one direction. But, going to the N, W and S can give 3 good directions for measurement.

Major highways, unless they are raised or sunken to allow pedestrians, businesses or residences continuity (like Goose Hollow area of Portland) all represent a barrier to "urbanity."

I'm going to try it on a couple of new and legacy cities and see how this works.
I'm looking at contiguous urbanity (walkable) starting from city hall (or equivalent) within the CDB.

Charlotte: 0.86 Miles
- Starting at city hall (3rd and Davidson), the contiguous urbanity in the N, S, and E directions basically ends at the Interstate, although the sea of parking lots to the E doesn't even take you that far.
- To the W, it looks as if the furthest contiguous urbanity is at about 9th and Pine (actually NNW). That's a distance of 0.86 miles as the crow flies.

Buffalo: 5.8 Miles (not including suburbs)
- Starting at city hall (Niagara Square), the W is separated by I190, although there is walking continuity under the road to the Marina and apartment towers. Just extending urbanity as far as the interstate itself is 0.3 miles to the W
- To the E, urban renewal and depopulation has done a number on continuity (lots of gaps and parking lots), so Broadway & Michigan is as far as you can go without things breaking up (FYI lots of infill in-work further out but this is the extent for today) at 0.6 miles.
- To the N, extending NE and NW, it is possible to go to the city line (Main St at Kenmore) thru contiguous neighborhoods, while dodging around Forest Lawn cemetery (5.8 mi). Can also cut back thru the N side of Buffalo from Main & Hertel and go as far as the city line as far as Kenmore and Military (5.0 mi). Also, with the exception of a short section of Grant St at the 198 (which does have a pedestrian crossing), can also consider straight up the west side to the city limit at Niagara and Vulcan (5.14 mi). If suburbs are included, contiguous urbanity extends as far as Delaware Rd and Sheridan Drive (6.53 miles) before hitting major shopping centers.

Trip to the edge (contiguous)(images along the way)(milage is road distance from start)
0.0 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8860...7i13312!8i6656
0.2 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8856...7i13312!8i6656
0.5 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8885...7i13312!8i6656
1.2 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8986...7i13312!8i6656
1.6 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8994...7i13312!8i6656
2.6 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9129...7i13312!8i6656
3.3 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9153...7i13312!8i6656
5.5 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9422...7i13312!8i6656
6.5 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9508...7i13312!8i6656

Last edited by RocketSci; 07-20-2017 at 07:22 PM..
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:52 PM
 
343 posts, read 368,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
I'm looking at contiguous urbanity (walkable) starting from city hall (or equivalent) within the CDB.

Charlotte: 0.86 Miles
- Starting at city hall (3rd and Davidson), the contiguous urbanity in the N, S, and E directions basically ends at the Interstate, although the sea of parking lots to the E doesn't even take you that far.
- To the W, it looks as if the furthest contiguous urbanity is at about 9th and Pine (actually NNW). That's a distance of 0.86 miles as the crow flies.

Buffalo: 5.8 Miles (not including suburbs)
- Starting at city hall (Niagara Square), the W is separated by I190, although there is walking continuity under the road to the Marina and apartment towers. Just extending urbanity as far as the interstate itself is 0.3 miles to the W
- To the E, urban renewal and depopulation has done a number on continuity (lots of gaps and parking lots), so Broadway & Michigan is as far as you can go without things breaking up (FYI lots of infill in-work further out but this is the extent for today) at 0.6 miles.
- To the N, extending NE and NW, it is possible to go to the city line (Main St at Kenmore) thru contiguous neighborhoods, while dodging around Forest Lawn cemetery (5.8 mi). Can also cut back thru the N side of Buffalo from Main & Hertel and go as far as the city line as far as Kenmore and Military (5.0 mi). Also, with the exception of a short section of Grant St at the 198 (which does have a pedestrian crossing), can also consider straight up the west side to the city limit at Niagara and Vulcan (5.14 mi). If suburbs are included, contiguous urbanity extends as far as Delaware Rd and Sheridan Drive (6.53 miles) before hitting major shopping centers.

Trip to the edge (contiguous)(images along the way)(milage is road distance from start)
0.0 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8860...7i13312!8i6656
0.2 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8856...7i13312!8i6656
0.5 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8885...7i13312!8i6656
1.2 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8986...7i13312!8i6656
1.6 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8994...7i13312!8i6656
2.6 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9129...7i13312!8i6656
3.3 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9153...7i13312!8i6656
5.5 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9422...7i13312!8i6656
6.5 mi https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9508...7i13312!8i6656
Charlotte's urbanity is greater than 0.86 miles. South of Charlotte's center is rapidly densifying.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2106...7i13312!8i6656
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synopsis101 View Post
Charlotte's urbanity is greater than 0.86 miles. South of Charlotte's center is rapidly densifying.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2106...7i13312!8i6656
The interstate, unfortunately, breaks up the continuity to the downtown area, but is growing nicely.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2217...7i13312!8i6656
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Chicago
2,357 posts, read 2,011,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
I'm looking at contiguous urbanity (walkable) starting from city hall (or equivalent) within the CDB.
I'm curious how various Rust Belt cities will stack up with each other in this regard. I know St. Louis won't hold up very well. Its most intact continuous urban fabric really isn't downtown or really radiating off of from downtown at this point.
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerseusVeil View Post
I'm curious how various Rust Belt cities will stack up with each other in this regard. I know St. Louis won't hold up very well. Its most intact continuous urban fabric really isn't downtown or really radiating off of from downtown at this point.
Unfortunately, otherwise dense contiguous neighborhoods became islands in many rust belt cities.
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketSci View Post
Unfortunately, otherwise dense contiguous neighborhoods became islands in many rust belt cities.
Much of the southern half of St. Louis is still contiguous with itself, but what it's not is contiguous with the central corridor and downtown St. Louis thanks to the interstates. Much of north city still is contiguous with downtown and the rest of the central corridor, but it's also heavily blighted in comparison to south city.

There are island neighborhoods though. Soulard would be a prime example. It's bounded in by industry to the east and interstates in every other direction. Here's the view from above:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/So...!4d-90.2092267
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