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Old 07-21-2017, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
987 posts, read 489,366 times
Reputation: 545

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Do legacy cities get a pass? Ha! Somebody please tell me when has Cleveland ever gotten a pass? I must've missed that or I've been asleep. It seems Cleveland is America's whipping boy for what went wrong in America. Plus, a lot of people feel that Cleveland doesn't deserve anything nice (i.e. LeBron) since it's not located on the Coast, the Sun Belt or Chicago.
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Old 07-21-2017, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,611 posts, read 24,787,463 times
Reputation: 11181
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
St. Louis was hit very hard by by urban renewal. Not only is there not a single intact first-ring urban neighborhood, there's not many second-ring urban neighborhoods left either. People from Saint Louis have told me that during the mid 20th century the city actually went out of its way to destroy just about all of the rowhouse stock because they were considered "antiquated slum housing" in the area.
It seems a little hard to believe that the city destroyed 80-90% of its densest housing stock. St. Louis did demolish a lot of housing though.



https://victualling.files.wordpress....reekvalley.jpg
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Chicago
2,357 posts, read 2,009,806 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
One would think St. Louis would have a much more walkable core considering it was a larger than Baltimore in 1880.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
St. Louis was hit very hard by by urban renewal. Not only is there not a single intact first-ring urban neighborhood, there's not many second-ring urban neighborhoods left either. People from Saint Louis have told me that during the mid 20th century the city actually went out of its way to destroy just about all of the rowhouse stock because they were considered "antiquated slum housing" in the area.

Cincinnati was horrendous too. Back in the 19th century the area in/around downtown Cinci was literally the densest part of the U.S. outside of Manhattan - and the only place outside of NYC and Boston that tenement housing was widely built. Over-The-Rhine is basically all that's left of the early/middle 19th century flat city closer to the river. Between expansion of the CBD, highways, urban blight in most of the West End, and the construction of the massive Queensgate industrial zone, the rest was just about wiped out. It has a great advantage over St. Louis (and Pittsburgh) in that Over-The-Rhine is not only still there, but basically walkable to downtown with no highway in the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
It seems a little hard to believe that the city destroyed 80-90% of its densest housing stock. St. Louis did demolish a lot of housing though.
eschaton hit the nail on the head. St. Louis was undergoing massive urban renewal projects long before the city's population even peaked in 1950. Taking a look at what was cleared out of the downtown area in order to build the Arch is particularly painful.

As for St. Louis' size in 1880, the vast majority of the city's housing that's still standing is from after that year. There are vast neighborhoods still full of buildings dating back to the late 19th century/turn of the 20th century that still exist, but the neighborhoods with housing dating from the 1920s to 1950s outnumber those late 19th/early 20th century neighborhoods. Many comparable late 19th/early 20th neighborhoods were also left to rot and quite literally fall to pieces in north city. This map highlights it all pretty well:
How old is that building? Check structures in the St. Louis area | Special Features | stltoday.com

Also for fun, here's what the Arch and its associated park replaced:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...08cc648bce.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...t-louis-mo.jpg
https://nextstl.com/wp-content/uploa...b6641807_o.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSVvazWVEAAy8SI.jpg
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.town...13ce.image.jpg
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Old 07-21-2017, 07:34 PM
 
3,567 posts, read 2,014,636 times
Reputation: 3288
Quote:
Originally Posted by QCongress83216 View Post
Do legacy cities get a pass? Ha! Somebody please tell me when has Cleveland ever gotten a pass? I must've missed that or I've been asleep. It seems Cleveland is America's whipping boy for what went wrong in America. Plus, a lot of people feel that Cleveland doesn't deserve anything nice (i.e. LeBron) since it's not located on the Coast, the Sun Belt or Chicago.
I don't think the question was how much it's admired, but rather how much it's seen as urban. In that sense, yes it probably gets to ride on its past a bit.

As for deserving nice things, I haven't heard that before. If people wondered why LeBron went there, they were probably thinking of market size, endorsement deals, etc., which tend to favor the big headquarters and/or rich cities.
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Old 07-21-2017, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Kennedy Heights, Ohio. USA
1,619 posts, read 1,277,445 times
Reputation: 1282
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
St. Louis was hit very hard by by urban renewal. Not only is there not a single intact first-ring urban neighborhood, there's not many second-ring urban neighborhoods left either. People from Saint Louis have told me that during the mid 20th century the city actually went out of its way to destroy just about all of the rowhouse stock because they were considered "antiquated slum housing" in the area.

Cincinnati was horrendous too. Back in the 19th century the area in/around downtown Cinci was literally the densest part of the U.S. outside of Manhattan - and the only place outside of NYC and Boston that tenement housing was widely built. Over-The-Rhine is basically all that's left of the early/middle 19th century flat city closer to the river. Between expansion of the CBD, highways, urban blight in most of the West End, and the construction of the massive Queensgate industrial zone, the rest was just about wiped out. It has a great advantage over St. Louis (and Pittsburgh) in that Over-The-Rhine is not only still there, but basically walkable to downtown with no highway in the way.
What happened in Cincinnati's case in why the Kenyon Barr urban neighborhood was demolished for the Queensgate industrial zone was that the Cincy's city budget was mainly dependent on income taxes for its funding. There was no land for industry to expand in the city limits so the city was losing a key funding source to the suburbs. If Cincinnati could have annexed the suburbs of Norwood, Evendale, Lockland and Sharonville it would not been under the financial pressure to find an industrial site in the city limits as it was in the 1930's when the planning was underway for the Queensgate industrial zone. The Ohio Supreme Court made it too difficult for Cincinnati to annex suburbs to the city which is why the year 1914 was the last time Cincy annexed a municipality to its city limits. The other city neighborhoods had wealthier better connected residents or were too hilly to locate a large scale industrial zone. Kenyon Barr had neither plus densely packed urban neighborhoods were looked upon as the least desirable neighborhoods to live in the city so it was the most expendable at that time. It was simply a neighborhood where the poor were warehoused in. When people acquired the financial means they moved to the hill neighborhoods further out in the city limits.

Density with all the pollution, noise, etc that accompanied it was looked upon as an unhealthy unclean way to live life. Cincinnati residents were packed like sardines in the overcrowded urban core of Cincinnati during the early 20th century that zoning laws were passed that only allowed single family housing for infill on vacant lots in the urban core of Cincy. Now that the pendulum has swung the other way hopefully these archaic zoning laws will be done away with soon so individual citizens can profitably do infill as opposed to the big developers if Cincy elects a more progressive urban minded city administration come November.

Last edited by Coseau; 07-21-2017 at 10:07 PM..
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:14 AM
 
43 posts, read 25,729 times
Reputation: 46
Built environment (buildings, infrastructure) verses population density.

Last edited by eugeniomerill; 07-22-2017 at 01:48 AM..
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:48 AM
 
1,039 posts, read 1,050,321 times
Reputation: 2355
Quote:
Originally Posted by eugeniomerill View Post
Built environment (buildings, infrastructure) verses population density.
Houston's highest density neighborhood (by population)
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7127...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7076...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7109...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7161...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7090...7i13312!8i6656


Sharpstown/Gulfton area of beautiful SW Houston.
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Old 07-22-2017, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
987 posts, read 489,366 times
Reputation: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays25 View Post
I don't think the question was how much it's admired, but rather how much it's seen as urban. In that sense, yes it probably gets to ride on its past a bit.

As for deserving nice things, I haven't heard that before. If people wondered why LeBron went there, they were probably thinking of market size, endorsement deals, etc., which tend to favor the big headquarters and/or rich cities.

Every time everyone talks about Cleveland everybody always say "The Mistake by the Lake" especially be the coastal media. So, Cleveland never rides on its past, it's everybody basing it on its past.

I disagree because LeBron has gotten massive endorsement deals while playing in Cleveland and Miami. It's not the '80s and '90s where you needed to play in a major city to thrive. Everybody says everybody wants to play in L.A. but no major free agents went to play and that's when Kobe was still on the team as they were coming off of a championship. Nowadays, with social media and NBA League Pass, players don't have to go to a rich city in order to be a star; they know they can be a star anywhere.
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Old 07-22-2017, 12:28 PM
 
2,092 posts, read 1,130,757 times
Reputation: 1371
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
In general, I don't think Great Lakes cities outside of Chicago have a very urban built vernacular. Even the 19th century urban neighborhoods that survive tend to be dominated by wood-frame detached houses on narrow lots set back fairly far (15 feet or more) with an big gap between the sidewalk and the road. Even the wood-framed two-flats basically have the same massing as detached houses. The densest feel "streetcar suburban" to me - although I know in some cases they preceded the electric streetcar.
I looked at the links you provided, and yes, I concur with that "streetcar suburban" density. Which is fine for a legacy city.
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Old 07-22-2017, 12:48 PM
 
1,412 posts, read 674,823 times
Reputation: 1882
http://statisticalatlas.com/neighbor...ide/Population

Here is a map, illustrating the population density in Milwaukee's east side...the most densely populated area in the city.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mi...!4d-87.9064736

I was correct, in my earlier post, on this area. The Walk Score in this area is 93.
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