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How is the The Atlantic Ocean not a major geographic constraint for NYC?
To Philadelphias ESE you have about 6000 sq miles of livable land. 6000 extra sq miles of room to build houses and apartments compared to NYC,Bos,SF,LA .
ESE of Manhattan ? Nothing but ocean friend.
The Insolence!!!! The Atlantic Ocean is not a constraint to growth because the great NOLA wills it to be so!!!
I have not yet understood exactly why (it's either because water and hilly terrain do not constrain housing supply or supply has no role in determing housing prices); HOWEVER!!!!, geography plays no role in real estate prices!
Someday intrepid warrior you will learn. For your sake, I do pray that time is soon for wrath if the NOLA is swift and it's abulity to perform mental gymnastics beyond any power you can comprehend. Tread warily fellow traveler.
The Insolence!!!! The Atlantic Ocean is not a constraint to growth because the great NOLA wills it to be so!!!
So explain to us how Lake Michigan isn't a bigger constraint to growth for Chicago.
The Atlantic is nowhere near NYC's core, while Lake Michigan is right in the middle of Chicago. Using your logic Chicago should be far more space-constrained. Zero land available east of downtown, compared to NYC, where Long Island has 1,400 square miles available east of downtown (and this ignores the fact that almost all of CT and a decent chunk of Jersey is east of Manhattan).
An area doesn't need to be devoid of all water in order to sprawl forever, obviously. The sprawl can go in other directions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebitdadada
I have not yet understood exactly why (it's either because water and hilly terrain do not constrain housing supply or supply has no role in determing housing prices); HOWEVER!!!!, geography plays no role in real estate prices!
No one said it plays absolutely no role. Almost everything plays some role. But it's comparatively meaningless. It isn't a determining factor. If Silicon Valley were in Philly or Chicago they would probably be about as expensive as Bay Area. There are no major geographic constraints around San Jose, where prices are insane.
There are no major geographic constraints around San Jose, where prices are insane.
False. There are mountain ranges to the east and west of San Jose, and the San Francisco Bay to the north. No, there's not as much geographic constraint in San Jose as there is in San Francisco, but there's still more than most cities.
Silly thing to say considering that Chicago and Philadelphia are bigger and more populous than San Francisco or Boston. If they aren't desirable, why do so many live there?
...
boston and san fran are denser.
more people live in nebraska so nebraska is more desirable ?
Because most of NYC's sprawl is nowhere near the Atlantic.
What does this even mean^? Staten Island is right on the lower bay and Atlantic Ocean. Manhattan is 5-10 miles from the lower bay and Atlantic Ocean.
The point is there is no place southeast of NYC to sprawl.
If you had 60 miles by 100 miles of cheap livable land to the east -south- east of Staten Island and Manhattan then sprawl certainly would have put a dent in NYC High Real estate.
Similarly if the Atlantic Ocean swallowed South Jersey and Philadlephia is now oceanfront. Philadlephias real estate market would skyrocket.
Im surprised you are fighting this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101
Is Chicago "constrained" by Lake Michigan?
Chicago is absolutely constrained by Lake Michigan.
If Lake Michigan were instead flat farmland :
1. Chicago doesnt become Chicago.
2. Its real estate market would be even much more modest than it currently is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101
Is Houston "constrained" by the Gulf of Mexico? Ridiculous.
No Houston is not . Houston you put in the same boat as Philadlephia. Millions of people have built homes Southeast of Houston and Philadlephia. Takes the pressure off the rest of the regions real estate market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101
Almost all major metros have some water. It doesn't mean they can't sprawl forever in most directions. NYC could easily sprawl to Canada and the Midwest, in theory.
Roughly 1/2 of NYC's,SF.LA's,Bostons potential real estate market is physically under water. You have to be able to see the ramifications that fact will have on the cost of living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nola101
I have no idea what an ESE is, or "livable land" (almost all land is livable)
East-Southeast.
Theres an enormous difference between building in flat South Jersey and the rougher terrain of NJ Highlands,Hudson Valley and SF Bay Area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101
The ocean isn't much further in Philly. Hell, Montauk is much further from Manhattan
The Ocean is 60 miles from Philadelphia. NYC its 0 miles. Manhattan about 10 miles.
Geography + Location is arguably the #1 ingredient for High Cost of Living. Highly Successful companies and successful people will seek out the best real estate for their employees and families.
As far as cities sprawling on forever? I dont agree with that. There is a certain distance where commuting kills sprawl to that core city. Certainly no morethan 40-50 miles.
What does this even mean^? Staten Island is right on the lower bay and Atlantic Ocean. Manhattan is 5-10 miles from the lower bay and Atlantic Ocean.
The point is there is no place southeast of NYC to sprawl.
If you had 60 miles by 100 miles of cheap livable land to the east -south- east of Staten Island and Manhattan then sprawl certainly would have put a dent in NYC High Real estate.
Similarly if the Atlantic Ocean swallowed South Jersey and Philadlephia is now oceanfront. Philadlephias real estate market would skyrocket.
Im surprised you are fighting this.
Chicago is absolutely constrained by Lake Michigan.
If Lake Michigan were instead flat farmland :
1. Chicago doesnt become Chicago.
2. Its real estate market would be even much more modest than it currently is.
No Houston is not . Houston you put in the same boat as Philadlephia. Millions of people have built homes Southeast of Houston and Philadlephia. Takes the pressure off the rest of the regions real estate market.
Roughly 1/2 of NYC's,SF.LA's,Bostons potential real estate market is physically under water. You have to be able to see the ramifications that fact will have on the cost of living.
East-Southeast.
Theres an enormous difference between building in flat South Jersey and the rougher terrain of NJ Highlands,Hudson Valley and SF Bay Area.
The Ocean is 60 miles from Philadelphia. NYC its 0 miles. Manhattan about 10 miles.
Geography + Location is arguably the #1 ingredient for High Cost of Living. Successful companies and successful people will seek out the best real estate for their employees and families.
As far as cities sprawling on forever? I dont agree with that. There is a certain distance where commuting kills sprawl to that core city. Certainly no morethan 40-50 miles.
I think its more because its impossible to get anywhere in NYC so living close is much more important. Chicago has a continuous street grid for miles in 3 directions, There are 8 lanes and 2 tracks across the Hudson. The only direction where there is alternate routes into Manhattan is North, and even then its only semi continuous. So its important to live close to NYC or directly on a Transit line or you are basically screwed. Useable real estate is much less in NYC than Chicago
So explain to us how Lake Michigan isn't a bigger constraint to growth for Chicago.
The Atlantic is nowhere near NYC's core, while Lake Michigan is right in the middle of Chicago. Using your logic Chicago should be far more space-constrained. Zero land available east of downtown, compared to NYC, where Long Island has 1,400 square miles available east of downtown (and this ignores the fact that almost all of CT and a decent chunk of Jersey is east of Manhattan).
An area doesn't need to be devoid of all water in order to sprawl forever, obviously. The sprawl can go in other directions.
No one said it plays absolutely no role. Almost everything plays some role. But it's comparatively meaningless. It isn't a determining factor. If Silicon Valley were in Philly or Chicago they would probably be about as expensive as Bay Area. There are no major geographic constraints around San Jose, where prices are insane.
Yes, desirability and economy have some of an effect on real estate prices, but geography 100% plays a very important role in real estate prices. Those areas with the most land constraints, and the most build-up, are usually the most expensive...
Some of the fastest growing US cities population and economy wise currently: Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Orlando, Phoenix... are also some of the cheapest real estate in the US. Why? Because they have vast amounts of available, build-able land.
Chicago is sort-of constrained by Lake Michigan, but can sprawl forever North, South and West. Chicago also builds a ****-ton of skyscrapers, which relieves real estate prices.
You really don't think it's a coincidence that the MOST expensive cities in the US are coastal? San Francisco, NYC, Boston, LA, San Diego, Seattle, Honolulu, Miami, etc.
San Francisco has all the recipes for being expensive. Between the ocean and the bay, and the mountains, and a strong economy.
NYC is hemmed in between the ocean, the bay, large rivers, etc... it is also EXTREMELY built up, so has gradually gotten more expensive over a few centuries. It also has a very strong economy, and is one of the most desirable cities in the world for real estate purchases/investment.
Ditto Miami, which is one of the most desirable cities in the world for real estate purchases/investment. It's also in between the ocean and the Everglades.
LA is in between the Ocean and mountains.
Honolulu is on an island.
San Diego is between the Ocean and the mountains.
Seattle is hemmed in between large bodies of water and the mountains.
Boston sits on the ocean, and the city itself is hemmed in between large bodies of water/rivers.
Coastal cities are the most expensive... this is no coincidence.
DC is the only one that is artificially expensive. Strict height limits spread development outward and make land expensive. The real estate cannot be relieved upward by building skyscrapers. This, and the fact that it's the home of the US government.
Philadelphia and Chicago have much, much more available, developable land comparatively. This is the main reason why they're cheaper.
Yes, desirability and economy have some of an effect on real estate prices, but geography 100% plays a very important role in real estate prices. Those areas with the most land constraints, and the most build-up, are usually the most expensive...
Some of the fastest growing US cities population and economy wise currently: Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Orlando, Phoenix... are also some of the cheapest real estate in the US. Why? Because they have vast amounts of available, build-able land.
Chicago is sort-of constrained by Lake Michigan, but can sprawl forever North, South and West. Chicago also builds a ****-ton of skyscrapers, which relieves real estate prices.
You really don't think it's a coincidence that the MOST expensive cities in the US are coastal? San Francisco, NYC, Boston, LA, San Diego, Seattle, Honolulu, Miami, etc.
San Francisco has all the recipes for being expensive. Between the ocean and the bay, and the mountains, and a strong economy.
NYC is hemmed in between the ocean, the bay, large rivers, etc... it is also EXTREMELY built up, so has gradually gotten more expensive over a few centuries. It also has a very strong economy, and is one of the most desirable cities in the world for real estate purchases/investment.
Ditto Miami, which is one of the most desirable cities in the world for real estate purchases/investment. It's also in between the ocean and the Everglades.
LA is in between the Ocean and mountains.
Honolulu is on an island.
San Diego is between the Ocean and the mountains.
Seattle is hemmed in between large bodies of water and the mountains.
Boston sits on the ocean, and the city itself is hemmed in between large bodies of water/rivers.
Coastal cities are the most expensive... this is no coincidence.
DC is the only one that is artificially expensive. Strict height limits spread development outward and make land expensive. The real estate cannot be relieved upward by building skyscrapers. This, and the fact that it's the home of the US government.
Philadelphia and Chicago have much, much more available, developable land comparatively. This is the main reason why they're cheaper.
Agree that both geography and desirability play a part in real estate prices but it's still supply and demand and I think desirability plays a bigger part. I get your point on the expensive places being geographically constrained but that's a small part of the reason.
Noone has to pay those expensive prices to live SF, Seattle or NYC etc... As you noted places like Dallas have vast amounts of land which is why it's cheap. Why would anyone purely on a financial decision live in any of the most expensive cities vs. for example Dallas. Those cities also have lots of jobs and fortune 500 companies etc..
If it was strictly a matter of high costs for geographical reasons we would all choose to live in one of the more affordable interior cities. Clearly there's a desire to live in many of the coastal cities whether it's the beauty, culture, jobs etc, and enough demand that prices can be driven up so high, with that demand continuing. Look at Honolulu, expensive purely based on desire to live there.
Last edited by Ebck120; 07-29-2017 at 04:16 PM..
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