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View Poll Results: PA vs. NY
NY 68 54.40%
PA 57 45.60%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-09-2017, 07:47 AM
 
52,659 posts, read 75,524,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPP1999 View Post
I think the relative economic strength of NYC vs. the rest of NYS allows NYS to say "no" to fracking. NYC can "cover" the rest of NYS more so than Philadelphia can "cover" the rest of PA.

It is funny to meet that someone living in an educated bubble in the NYC metro (or Philadelphia metro) can frown upon mining for natural resources 100 miles away. Just because those of us in the bubble don't need fracking does not give us the right to (in a holier than though way) be against it. The fracking regions need those jobs. Yes, the affected neighbors need to be compensated, and yes, it should be taxed like they do in every other state.
I think that there are environmental factors as well, as some towns put moratoriums on fracking due to what CookieSkoon mentioned in regards to shortcuts taken by companies.

NYS outside of the NYC area is likely middle of the road. This is an older thread, but the original post can give you an idea of what I'm referring to: North Carolina VS Redefined New York State Since then, the former Poughkeepsie-Newburgh-Middletown metro area(Orange and Dutchess counties) are now a part of the NYC metro and of course NC has grown since then.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:19 AM
 
Location: The mountain of Airy
5,147 posts, read 4,991,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
Not to go too much off topic but the fracking bothers me too.

But regarding Pennsylvania the fracking has pretty much thrown a monkey wrench into my thinking. The idea of buying a property and a year, 2 years or 10 years later the property next door gets sold for fracking or some other industrial use is scary. Not only is there a health concern but the concern of what happens to the long term value of my property because the neighbor or someone down the road is fracking.

I realize my fear is overblown to some extent because not all of Pennsylvania is being fracked. But I am still glad that New York declined to allow fracking, especially as New York is one of the top tourist states in the country and New York is next to the New England states with their squeaky clean image.
I couldn't have said it better myself. The risk may be relatively low now (e.g. fracking has slowed and people are being more careful), but we don't know what the future holds. And even if fracking companies are being "safe", there are impacts. The reality is that fracking by nature is an extremely violent process of getting to natural resources.

I may make some people mad by saying it, but the support to allow fracking comes with a certain socioeconomic demographic. NY's southern tier also has it, but I believe it's wrapped around financial desperation and a lack of genuine appreciation for one's land (soul selling). Something that elevates NYS for me, because many communities were happy about it being made illegal (barring a handful).

Last edited by AJNEOA; 08-09-2017 at 09:27 AM..
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:29 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,142 posts, read 21,752,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
I couldn't have said it better myself. The risk may be relatively low now (e.g. fracking has slowed and people are being more careful), but we don't know what the future holds. And even if fracking companies are being "safe", there are impacts. The reality is that fracking by nature is an extremely violent process of getting to natural resources.

I may make some people mad by saying it, but the support to allow fracking comes with a certain socioeconomic demographic. NY's southern tier also has it, but I believe it's wrapped around financial desperation and a lack of genuine appreciation for one's land (soul selling). Something that elevates NYS for me, because many communities were happy about it being made illegal (barring a handful).
Right, and good governance and civil society should lead to working towards an economic model/policy that is in lieu of fracking. Unfortunately, that seems to be rarely what happens.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:33 AM
 
Location: USA
13,400 posts, read 7,315,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPP1999 View Post
I think the relative economic strength of NYC vs. the rest of NYS allows NYS to say "no" to fracking. NYC can "cover" the rest of NYS more so than Philadelphia can "cover" the rest of PA.

It is funny to meet that someone living in an educated bubble in the NYC metro (or Philadelphia metro) can frown upon mining for natural resources 100 miles away. Just because those of us in the bubble don't need fracking does not give us the right to (in a holier than though way) be against it. The fracking regions need those jobs. Yes, the affected neighbors need to be compensated, and yes, it should be taxed like they do in every other state.
I am glad PA allows fracking, and using our natural resources. It creates JOBS, has brought back to life many small towns, and small cities that were in depression mode, generates tax revenue, and helps our energy independence. A lot of natural gas from PA pumped by pipeline down to Marcus Hook were it gets liquefied, and distributed. Some of it is being sold overseas, so it helps our exports, and trade deficit. We have a very liberal/progressive DEMOCRAT governor, so I doubt he would do anything that would actually p*ss off the greenies.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:01 AM
 
Location: The mountain of Airy
5,147 posts, read 4,991,021 times
Reputation: 3415
Quote:
Originally Posted by BPP1999 View Post
I think the relative economic strength of NYC vs. the rest of NYS allows NYS to say "no" to fracking. NYC can "cover" the rest of NYS more so than Philadelphia can "cover" the rest of PA.

It is funny to meet that someone living in an educated bubble in the NYC metro (or Philadelphia metro) can frown upon mining for natural resources 100 miles away. Just because those of us in the bubble don't need fracking does not give us the right to (in a holier than though way) be against it. The fracking regions need those jobs. Yes, the affected neighbors need to be compensated, and yes, it should be taxed like they do in every other state.
Outside of NYC, there is a significant opposition to fracking in NYS.

https://www.fractracker.org/map/us/new-york/moratoria/
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
4,268 posts, read 7,193,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
I may make some people mad by saying it, but the support to allow fracking comes with a certain socioeconomic demographic. NY's southern tier also has it, but I believe it's wrapped around financial desperation and a lack of genuine appreciation for one's land (soul selling). Something that elevates NYS for me, because many communities were happy about it being made illegal (barring a handful).
I don't think that's quite a fair characterization. I certainly agree that it's often the case that "down-on-their-luck" areas are more willing to sacrifice environmental risk and impacts for economic development. But it's both a very privileged and biased point-of-view to suggest that folks choosing to sell their land for energy extraction activity for better financial security either have "sold their soul" or don't have one ounce of environmental concern (in fact, in some cases landowners have looked to fracking for land preservation purposes, as opposed to selling to other development interests).

I think that kind of tone is what irks many folks about this kind of conversation. Again, full disclosure: I'm against fracking and do hope it's phased-out in the near future, for at least a much less risky and environmentally impactful gas extraction technology (something that's actually very feasible in the near future).

But I do resent the notion, implicit or implied, that Pennsylvania is somehow morally-inferior or a dystopian wasteland for allowing an industrial practice that NYS happens to disallow (as opposed to hundreds of other industrial practices that both states do happen to permit, so let's not pretend that industrial activity has completely escaped NY). That's when these types of issues take on a much more emotional, as opposed to factual, tone, which serves no one well.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:10 AM
 
Location: The mountain of Airy
5,147 posts, read 4,991,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
I don't think that's quite a fair characterization. I certainly agree that it's often the case that "down-on-their-luck" areas are more willing to sacrifice environmental risk and impacts for economic development.

But it's both a very privileged and biased point-of-view to suggest that folks choosing to sell their land for energy extraction activity for better financial security either have "sold their soul" or don't have one ounce of environmental concern (in fact, in some cases landowners have looked to fracking for land preservation purposes, as opposed to selling to other development interests).

I think kind of tone is what irks many folks about this kind of conversation. Again, full disclosure: I'm against fracking and do hope it's phased-out in the near future, for at least a much less risky and environmentally impactful gas extraction technology (something that's actually very feasible in the near future).

But I do resent the notion, implicit or implied, that Pennsylvania is somehow morally-inferior or a dystopian wasteland for allowing industrial practice that NYS happens to disallow (as opposed to hundreds of other industrial practices that both states do happen to permit, so let's not pretend that industrial activity has completely escaped NY). That's when these types of issues take on a much more emotional, as opposed to factual, tone, which serves no one well.
I understand your position. But I stand by the fact that there is no reason to sell land to a large energy company (which are almost always soulless) other than for financial gain. And it's highly unlikely that anyone who cares about their land and/or who has enough finances to get by comfortably would want to sell it in the first place. Otherwise, why sell to these corporations? People in PA can tout that it's made positive economic impacts for many small towns, but the reality is that it's not a sustainable economic model. Finite resources dry up and the same towns are laid to waste in future generations. This really boils down to a national discussion around jobs and older/smaller towns and cities IMO, not so much PA vs. NY.

And it's not about having zero ounces of environment concern or being morally inferior. It has to do with financial security and a love for one's land. When nothing is left and no options remain, the land sold.

Note: Don't assume I don't dislike what so many other industries do to our land.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:26 AM
 
52,659 posts, read 75,524,827 times
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Here is an example of what industry has done to one Southern Tier(NY) community and perhaps why there was some push back in NY towards Fracking:
Life In The Plume: IBM's Pollution Haunts a Village | syracuse.com

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2004/03/1...neighbors.html

Luckily: Southern Tier town's "toxic plume" reduced by 80 percent, says DEC | WRVO Public Media and other parts of town aren't impacted. It is sad, as it can bring a stigma to what is a very walkable and solid community otherwise.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
125 posts, read 50,289 times
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There is plenty of opposition to fracking in both Upstate NY and rural Pennsylvania. Unfortunately in some areas, the short-term monetary gain and discourse of shale oil companies misleads people to supporting the practice.

I cannot see the benefit of fracking when it 1) has proven to contaminate water and 2) is fundamentally "nonrenewable," in that one day the shale oil will be gone, those jobs will dissipate, and the industry will be directed where coal is now.

Why not invest in renewable and green energy, which is sustainable from both an economic and ecological standpoint?
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:58 AM
 
Location: In the heights
20,142 posts, read 21,752,589 times
Reputation: 10223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
There is plenty of opposition to fracking in both Upstate NY and rural Pennsylvania. Unfortunately in some areas, the short-term monetary gain and discourse of shale oil companies misleads people to supporting the practice.

I cannot see the benefit of fracking when it 1) has proven to contaminate water and 2) is fundamentally "nonrenewable," in that one day the shale oil will be gone, those jobs will dissipate, and the industry will be directed where coal is now.

Why not invest in renewable and green energy, which is sustainable from both an economic and ecological standpoint?
Because long term planning takes too long
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