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View Poll Results: PA vs. NY
NY 68 54.40%
PA 57 45.60%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-09-2017, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
4,272 posts, read 7,196,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muinteoir View Post
There is plenty of opposition to fracking in both Upstate NY and rural Pennsylvania. Unfortunately in some areas, the short-term monetary gain and discourse of shale oil companies misleads people to supporting the practice.

I cannot see the benefit of fracking when it 1) has proven to contaminate water and 2) is fundamentally "nonrenewable," in that one day the shale oil will be gone, those jobs will dissipate, and the industry will be directed where coal is now.

Why not invest in renewable and green energy, which is sustainable from both an economic and ecological standpoint?
All 100% true. And I think that all communities will be forced to think more sustainably (both in the economic and environmental sense) much sooner than they think (PA in particular, being so unfamiliar with the natural industry until about 10 years ago, is now beginning to understand how it's not gold mine that was once envisioned).

Also, just like coal has been disrupted by natural gas, solar is truly on the cusp of being the cheapest energy source worldwide, which will finally be the death knell to the fossil fuel industry: https://www.forbes.com/sites/morgans.../#3ec5cb901f85
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:09 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,166 posts, read 21,767,856 times
Reputation: 10239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
All 100% true. And I think that all communities will be forced to think more sustainably (both in the economic and environmental sense) much sooner than they think (PA in particular, being so unfamiliar with the natural industry until about 10 years ago, is now beginning to understand how it's not gold mine that was once envisioned).

Also, just like coal has been disrupted by natural gas, solar is truly on the cusp of being the cheapest energy source worldwide, which will finally be the death knell to the fossil fuel industry: https://www.forbes.com/sites/morgans.../#3ec5cb901f85
One issue is that the US had a manufacturing and technological leg-up on renewables for quite a while, but that was pretty thoroughly squandered over the course of the Bush administration which was probably the most crucial period, was unevenly propped a bit with the Obama administration that was not able or unwilling to take it very far due to congressional opposition, and looks to have little support in the current one. There's still opportunity there, but at this point it's probable we'll play second fiddle to China on this sector (as we would with coal, but possibly not with liquefied natural gas). Of course, I hope to be proven wrong and this administration suddenly puts weight behind this sector, but I'm not holding my breath.

That said, renewables are great, but at fruition will likely domestically benefit the sunbelt more unless there is a large discrepancy in state policy. That does currently exist, but I'm not sure if even the most stalwart of fossil fuel funded politicians can hold onto that bias as the economic value becomes more and more apparent.
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:48 PM
 
Location: The mountain of Airy
5,148 posts, read 4,993,434 times
Reputation: 3418
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
One issue is that the US had a manufacturing and technological leg-up on renewables for quite a while, but that was pretty thoroughly squandered over the course of the Bush administration which was probably the most crucial period, was unevenly propped a bit with the Obama administration that was not able or unwilling to take it very far due to congressional opposition, and looks to have little support in the current one. There's still opportunity there, but at this point it's probable we'll play second fiddle to China on this sector (as we would with coal, but possibly not with liquefied natural gas). Of course, I hope to be proven wrong and this administration suddenly puts weight behind this sector, but I'm not holding my breath.

That said, renewables are great, but at fruition will likely domestically benefit the sunbelt more unless there is a large discrepancy in state policy. That does currently exist, but I'm not sure if even the most stalwart of fossil fuel funded politicians can hold onto that bias as the economic value becomes more and more apparent.
Spot on. Energy consumerism is almost completely driven on price. It's not like food where you get an inherently different produce going through one source vs another. And even that is largely dominated by price. There is an exception with solar, but I won't go there for purposes of this discussion.

Once a state submits and opens its doors to this type of energy policy, it will be hard to ever get it out. People make money, politicians make money, corporations make money, and then elections are one-sided in that regard. I love solar (I own a solar generator for camping), but it's not going to change fracking policy in PA anytime soon unless solar becomes useful and cheap in a very big way. I suspect PA lawmakers and corporations are well-prepared in that regard.
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Downtown & Brooklyn!
1,951 posts, read 1,069,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradjl2009 View Post
Eliminate NYC from the vote total and Trump would have won NY too. He flipped parts of the New York City metro like Suffolk County and Staten Island as well. I'm far from pro Trump, but it's important to realize outside of NYC, New York isn't that much more blue than PA.
I agree but the fact that PA still went to Trump even with the Philly Metro (and Pittsburgh) is noteworthy though.

And Staten Island has always been the conservative stronghold of NYC. I wouldn't call that a "flip". That was not a surprise to anyone familiar with Staten Island.
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Old 08-09-2017, 04:54 PM
 
Location: In the heights
20,166 posts, read 21,767,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Spot on. Energy consumerism is almost completely driven on price. It's not like food where you get an inherently different produce going through one source vs another. And even that is largely dominated by price. There is an exception with solar, but I won't go there for purposes of this discussion.

Once a state submits and opens its doors to this type of energy policy, it will be hard to ever get it out. People make money, politicians make money, corporations make money, and then elections are one-sided in that regard. I love solar (I own a solar generator for camping), but it's not going to change fracking policy in PA anytime soon unless solar becomes useful and cheap in a very big way. I suspect PA lawmakers and corporations are well-prepared in that regard.
Solar is more or less there at this point (too bad our policy weakness over the last decade and a half meant we're not at the forefront right now), but it's still questionable how well that'd to do in the solar potential difference between PA and the sunbelt. I think PA should move towards that, but it also needs to look to other advantages a lot. It can get a headstart on solar via policy, but there's a certain limit in terms of physics before the sunbelt realizes it has a much greater advantage. It makes sense to try to get a couple decades headstart because a couple decades headstart is a lot for a human lifespan, but it also needs to prepare for when sheer physics and economics makes it so that those other states also realize it and PA needs to move to other advantages.
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Old 08-10-2017, 07:44 AM
 
1,232 posts, read 1,361,484 times
Reputation: 2156
PA for politics. Like in the last election, when I couldn't make up my mind, but ultimately voted for Trump. I was shocked to discover after Election Day that I was one of the 60,000 votes that swung the election to Trump. That's pretty cool! As a voter in PA, you have the opportunity to chart the course of the nation and world history. In NY, you really don't have a choice and the liberal establishment always speaks for you.
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Old 08-10-2017, 08:22 AM
 
52,692 posts, read 75,579,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ny789987 View Post
PA for politics. Like in the last election, when I couldn't make up my mind, but ultimately voted for Trump. I was shocked to discover after Election Day that I was one of the 60,000 votes that swung the election to Trump. That's pretty cool! As a voter in PA, you have the opportunity to chart the course of the nation and world history. In NY, you really don't have a choice and the liberal establishment always speaks for you.
Not necessarily, as it depends on what level of government you are voting for and where in the state, in that regard.
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Old 08-10-2017, 08:47 AM
 
1,232 posts, read 1,361,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
Not necessarily, as it depends on what level of government you are voting for and where in the state, in that regard.
Local politics don't matter in NY. Albany controlled by downstate and the unions suffocates everything.
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Old 08-10-2017, 09:18 AM
 
Location: The mountain of Airy
5,148 posts, read 4,993,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Solar is more or less there at this point (too bad our policy weakness over the last decade and a half meant we're not at the forefront right now), but it's still questionable how well that'd to do in the solar potential difference between PA and the sunbelt. I think PA should move towards that, but it also needs to look to other advantages a lot. It can get a headstart on solar via policy, but there's a certain limit in terms of physics before the sunbelt realizes it has a much greater advantage. It makes sense to try to get a couple decades headstart because a couple decades headstart is a lot for a human lifespan, but it also needs to prepare for when sheer physics and economics makes it so that those other states also realize it and PA needs to move to other advantages.
The science is there and the product is much more viable than even five years ago. However, widespread use, especially at the commercial and residential level is not ready IMO. The reality is that if you go with solar as a primary source, you're also becoming an energy company yourself. The product is relatively low-maintenance, but you have to deal with large up-front investment, managing energy usage, basic maintenance, incidents (e.g. wind damage, hail damage, etc.), and of course eventual replacement or larger scale maintenance. Often times, back-up options exist if it is your primary, because it takes a large farm and large-scale battery storage to make modern living feasible (batteries are the biggest problem IME). Again, it can be done, but most Americans aren't used to managing their energy in this manner. It's much easier to pay a monthly bill and live life.

The implications of widespread usage directly impact the need for other types of energy and their ability to influence businesses and politicians; two entities that are incredibly short-sighted.
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Old 08-10-2017, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,621 posts, read 24,826,243 times
Reputation: 11185
Quote:
Originally Posted by ny789987 View Post
I was shocked to discover after Election Day that I was one of the 60,000 votes that swung the election to Trump.
You weren't one of 60,000. You were one of the one million+ who voted for him.
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