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2) I need a source regarding office space in PW County, because according to the County Government Estimate of General Revenue Report, there is 44.6 Million Square Feet of Office Space in Prince William County (see Page 15).
Correction: that's 44.6 million square feet of commercial space, which includes office, flex, industrial, and retail. If you look at the graphs on that page, you'll see how it's broken out and the bar graph in particular shows that there's less than 10 million square feet of office space in the county, at least in 2015.
Correction: that's 44.6 million square feet of commercial space, which includes office, flex, industrial, and retail. If you look at the graphs on that page, you'll see how it's broken out and the bar graph in particular shows that there's less than 10 million square feet of office space in the county, at least in 2015.
That still seems a bit off. PW, along with Loudoun, have both become huge data center hubs for the region. I'd imagine the office space is more than that.
That still seems a bit off. PW, along with Loudoun, have both become huge data center hubs for the region. I'd imagine the office space is more than that.
Data centers typically employ few people and don't contain much office space; on the whole, it is considered industrial or flex space.
1) I know what county Norcross, Lawrenceville and Buford are in since I actually used to live in Gwinnett County.
2) I need a source regarding office space in PW County, because according to the County Government Estimate of General Revenue Report, there is 44.6 Million Square Feet of Office Space in Prince William County (see Page 15).
3) The part of Gwinnett that is next to Fulton County is adjacent to another far-flung suburb - Johns Creek, not the city of Atlanta itself. You have to take interstate 85 to get from Norcross, Lilburn, Duluth to the city of Atlanta (via DeKalb County). Just like you take I-95 to get from Dale City, Woodbridge, and Occoquan to get to DC (via I-395 through Fairfax County, Alexandria, and Arlington County). It's still roughly the same distance.
You may not consider it a core county of the DC area, but given the commuting patterns of the area, and the history of growth in PW in the last three decades, it very much is.
Gwinnett is also larger in size than PW County and doesn't have two independent cities in the middle of the county. And like I said, I need a source regarding office space because the 6.5 Million sq feet you cited is way off compared to the county government records. You can ignore similarities, but hey, you have your opinion, we have ours. I used to live in Gwinnett and have family in Woodbridge and Dale City, so I definitely see the similarities between the two. No one said that they were the "same," but I compared PW to Gwinnett for my reasons stated above. Gwinnett has far more in common with PW than it does with Fairfax County (which is closer in size, but totally different in demographics, income, job centers/office space, etc. than Gwinnett).
The document said commercial space not office space, commercial space can include retail as well. No way Pw has 44 million square feet of office space. I already noted Gwinnett has approximately 4 times as much office space as PW.
Another reason why PW is not a core county is because it never got Metro initially (Yes I know Gwinnett doesnt have rail either but it was more of rejection and a station stops at the county line).
Third look at the commuting patterns, PW more is basically a suburb of Fairfax County than it is a core county of DC. Core counties have significant office space, institutions, organizations, activities, can actually compete with DC proper etc.
According to PW county
Top 10 Places Residents are Commuting To
Area Workers
Fairfax County, VA 63,261
District of Columbia, DC 14,931
Loudoun County, VA 10,644
Arlington County, VA 9,541
Alexandria city, VA 7,531
Manassas city, VA 7,317
Fairfax city, VA 3,143
Stafford County, VA 2,828
Montgomery County, MD 2,456
Henrico County, VA 2,364
Top 10 Places Workers are Commuting From
Area Workers
Fairfax County, VA 16,134
Stafford County, VA 5,988
Loudoun County, VA 5,531
Fauquier County, VA 4,355
Spotsylvania County, VA 3,684
Manassas city, VA 3,629
Prince George's County, MD 1,675
Culpeper County, VA 1,647
Warren County, VA 1,297
Alexandria city, VA 1,293
DC doesnt even register for people going to PW for work and way more people go Fairfax from PW than vice versa.
With Gwinnett, 66,552 leave from that county to go to Fulton for work, where 20,012 leave Fulton for Gwinnett, I'm not sure how this translated if someone can find Atlanta's numbers that would be great. But at a percentage of population is much lower than PW.
With Gwinnett, 66,552 leave from that county to go to Fulton for work, where 20,012 leave Fulton for Gwinnett, I'm not sure how this translated if someone can find Atlanta's numbers that would be great. But at a percentage of population is much lower than PW.
I don't think those stats are broken down by city but if I had to guess, just as many Gwinnettians are commuting to jobs along the GA 400 corridor than to jobs in Atlanta proper.
The document said commercial space not office space, commercial space can include retail as well. No way Pw has 44 million square feet of office space. I already noted Gwinnett has approximately 4 times as much office space as PW.
Another reason why PW is not a core county is because it never got Metro initially (Yes I know Gwinnett doesnt have rail either but it was more of rejection and a station stops at the county line).
Third look at the commuting patterns, PW more is basically a suburb of Fairfax County than it is a core county of DC. Core counties have significant office space, institutions, organizations, activities, can actually compete with DC proper etc.
According to PW county
Top 10 Places Residents are Commuting To
Area Workers
Fairfax County, VA 63,261
District of Columbia, DC 14,931
Loudoun County, VA 10,644
Arlington County, VA 9,541
Alexandria city, VA 7,531
Manassas city, VA 7,317
Fairfax city, VA 3,143
Stafford County, VA 2,828
Montgomery County, MD 2,456
Henrico County, VA 2,364
Top 10 Places Workers are Commuting From
Area Workers
Fairfax County, VA 16,134
Stafford County, VA 5,988
Loudoun County, VA 5,531
Fauquier County, VA 4,355
Spotsylvania County, VA 3,684
Manassas city, VA 3,629
Prince George's County, MD 1,675
Culpeper County, VA 1,647
Warren County, VA 1,297
Alexandria city, VA 1,293
DC doesnt even register for people going to PW for work and way more people go Fairfax from PW than vice versa.
With Gwinnett, 66,552 leave from that county to go to Fulton for work, where 20,012 leave Fulton for Gwinnett, I'm not sure how this translated if someone can find Atlanta's numbers that would be great. But at a percentage of population is much lower than PW.
I see your point but still, Gwinnett is much more comportable to Prince William than it is Fairfax or Arlington County, it's not quite on that level yet.
I see a few ways the places are similar. The racial break down is fairly similar. Prince William is a bit more white and a bit more Hispanic and Gwinnett is just a bit more black and a bit more Asian.
I see some discrepancy in terms of income. Prince William is a bit more more wealthy.... It is MHI in the $90k area vs. Gwinnett's in the $60k area.
Part of that is because Gwinnett is on the urban side, like the others said about being more of a core county and prince William is a bit more of a suburban bedroom community. It actually reminds me of Gwinnett in the '90s.
The issue is Gwinnett has more jobs, more office space, and far more industrial space. This brings in lower incomes to key core areas around job centers too. Gwinnett does have more affluent bedroom areas too away from their core job centers around I-85.
Now what is interesting is if you slice up parts of Gwinnett County, they would compare very well to Prince William County.... but not the whole county. Gwinnett also has enough jobs for it's whole population. Now in reality many Gwinnettians are commuting towards the city and the N. Fulton/Alpharetta area and many people are commuting into Gwinnett, including outlying suburban and exurban areas.
By the numbers I am looking at, Prince William doesn't have a strong enough economy or enough jobs to be all that similar to Gwinnett.
Gwinnett's jobs also pay more per capita, which is an indication that more of Prince William's jobs are retail based following the wealth of its residents. Prince William does a highly affluent population, which is more dependent on jobs out of county.
I would say Gwinnett is between Prince William and Fairfax, but much more like Fairfax. Overall, we do not have the wealth of Northern Virginia, though.
Just go to Census quick facts and you will see a few stark differences (I'm heavily rounding and adding in Mannassas city when possible. It matters on some key measurements when you look at the data charted out, but on some measurements it doesn't matter):
Population
Prince William: 496k
Gwinnett: 907k
Total Employment
Prince William: 96k
Gwinnett: 319k
Annual Payroll
Prince William: $3,981k
Gwinnett: $15,760k
Total Manufacturers Shipments
Prince William: $1.7 billion
Gwinnett: $6.8 billion
Wholesaler Sales
Prince William: $2.2 billion
Gwinnett: $30.8 billion
Retail Sales
Prince William: $6.4 billion
Gwinnett: $12.6 billion
(It is worth noting the two are close to the same in terms of per capita retail sales; I didn't take the pro-rate Mananas city into the measurement for per capita; just eye-balled)
Annual employment change
Prince William: -0.2%
Gwinnett: 2.5%
(This is in part from Gwinnett being a core county in terms of a growing employment area in the Atlanta region)
Office Space (source is Colliers)
The NE Atlanta submarket, which starts at the Gwinnett County line has 24.2 msf of office space according to Colliers. This is likely fairly accurate, but there is likely to be a small margin of this in Flowers Crossing in Hall County and a few exurban areas. I do not have the raw data to parse that out. This does not include Dekalb Co. in the northeast Atlanta corridor.
Prince William according to the Northern Virginia submarket report has 1 msf of office space, including Manassas.
In comparison... Fairfax County (and city) has 54.4msf and Gwinnett Adjacent area of Northlake in northern Dekalb has 17.3 msf (It is worth noting that Northlake is a small area of Dekalb that is in the northeast corridor and it is frequently added into the 24.2 msf above to mark the entire total of Atlanta's Northeastern corridor.)
In all I would say on these line Gwinnett is much more like Fairfax, however not quite as big and it depends on its neighboring suburban Dekalb going intown combined to come close to being on the level of Fairfax. However, Prince William and Gwinnett seem to have little in common in this regard.
Gwinnett is also much more Industrial than both Fairfax and Prince William. I can also say that retail sales in Gwinnett were far closer to that in Fairfax.
Industrial Market
Northeast Atlanta submarket: 190 msf
Discussion: This includes Northern Dekalb outside of I-285 and includes Southern Hall County. Most of the core of this is centered on Gwinnett, but we all know there is a good deal of industrial space in northern Dekalb and S. Hall. The majority of this will be in Gwinnett, but there is a sizeable chunk of this I do not have adaquete data to parse out. Check Colliers reports to see the map.
Colliers does not have an industrial market report for Prince William/Northern Virginia outside the Shenendoah Valley, which 90msf scattered across a very large region further out of the city. I do not have a direct comparison here other than the prior Census Quick facts relating to wholesale.
The overall point it... Prince William is an outlying suburban county and is a good bit more affluent. It is also much more of a bedroom community with fewer jobs and fewer jobs per capita that likely are more limited to local retail, government, schools, etc.. with a lower payroll per capita ... all while having more affluent residents.
I would liken Prince William County much more like Forsyth County, Ga in relations of wealth, business environment, and size. Although, Forsyth County will not follow the same racial trends Gwinnett and Prince William do.
Well maybe core for Northern Virginia, but Loudoun and Prince William are relatively new to the "game" as far as the DC metro. For the longest time Montgomery and Prince George's Counties in Maryland, Arlington and Fairfax counties and of course Alexandria (city) in Va were considered the primary jurisdictions to Washington, D.C.
Frederick and Charles, MD, Loudoun and Prince William, Va got attention relatively recently due to the suburban sprawl in the DC area, they were always considered more exburbs especially since you had to go through the core counties to get to them.
Explain this...
I grew up in Prince William and Fairfax. How are you defining "recent"? I'm 28 years old and my entire life, this is going back to at least the late-80s, Prince William has been considered Metro DC. Maybe it's my youth, but I'm not aware of any time it wasn't considered Metro DC. Woodbridge and northern Prince William had access to DC via Metrobus, Fairfax Connector, VRE, and probably two or three more public transportation lines. Franconia-Springfield is 12 minutes from the block I grew up on in Woodbridge. As far as connectivity with The District, sure, Prince William is more suburban than the closer in areas, fewer commuters, but plenty of people commute to The City...
That said, two more things. I don't have an issue with people suggesting Gwinnett is more intertwined with Atlanta than Prince William to DC. I also think the guy who suggested Gwinnett is in anyway more urban than Prince William is very wrong. The neighborhood/census tract I grew up in has a population density of over 12,000; has round-the-clock, 24-hour public transportation, with different companies/lines; and at the very least is a draw in terms of internationalism with anywhere in Gwinnett. Yes, it's most definitely a suburb, but it is a more urban suburb than anywhere in Gwinnett. Source: I lived in Gainesville (Hall County) and Buford, and a few years ago knew Lawrenceville, Norcross, Suwanee, Stone Mountain, and Snellville like the back of my hands...
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas
Most likely most people on this board don't have personal experience with both counties, but oddly I do since I have family that lives in Manassas. On every visit I can never get away from the idea that PWC and Gwinnettia are basically the same. As another poster noted earlier, even the ethnic demographics are nearly identical.
The only leg up PWC has over Gwinnett is transit access in to the central city. While there is a MARTA line that ends right at the county's border, the county has historically has been anti-rail and was one of the original three metro counties that refused to join the authority. Fortunately, it seems the political winds are changing quickly as it went blue in the last national election and will soon (or already has) become majority minority.
Other than that, any differences are superficial.
I guess that makes two of us who know both counties. The only similarity that jumped out to me was diversity levels. Besides that, I was never alert to many strong similarities, though they may exist...
I also think the guy who suggested Gwinnett is in anyway more urban than Prince William is very wrong. The neighborhood/census tract I grew up in has a population density of over 12,000; has round-the-clock, 24-hour public transportation, with different companies/lines; and at the very least is a draw in terms of internationalism with anywhere in Gwinnett. Yes, it's most definitely a suburb, but it is a more urban suburb than anywhere in Gwinnett. Source: I lived in Gainesville (Hall County) and Buford, and a few years ago knew Lawrenceville, Norcross, Suwanee, Stone Mountain, and Snellville like the back of my hands...
I guess I'm "that guy"
Yes, you heard right... I get it we aren't urban in character, but we're a functioning urban environment in that we have jobs, industry, and living area... we're not just a bedroom community, which is the classic definition of suburb. We are inclusive of all economics functions of a city.
No, I'm not trying to claim Gwinnett is a place of a density enthusiast by any means, but the whole populace of 900k can live work and play here.... not something Prince William County can claim outright.
More confusing is that Prince William is not more urban in any way, if that is your argument. The numbers aren't there. Perhaps a neighboring county in Virginia?
Overall Prince William has a density of 1,230 ppsm on 336 sq mi.
Gwinnett has a density of 1,927ppsm on 440 sq mi and it does that with having more land in place for office and industrial use.
Gwinnett is hardly the place for a density enthusiast... but you're picking a fight you can't win. Prince William is a suburban bedroom community on the suburban fringe of DC.
Gwinnett County is a core suburban county of Atlanta with suburban and exurban bedroom counties bordering it with a decent base of jobs, office space, and industrial properties.
Yes, you heard right... I get it we aren't urban in character, but we're a functioning urban environment in that we have jobs, industry, and living area... we're not just a bedroom community, which is the classic definition of suburb. We are inclusive of all economics functions of a city.
No, I'm not trying to claim Gwinnett is a place of a density enthusiast by any means, but the whole populace of 900k can live work and play here.... not something Prince William County can claim outright.
More confusing is that Prince William is not more urban in any way, if that is your argument. The numbers aren't there. Perhaps a neighboring county in Virginia?
Overall Prince William has a density of 1,230 ppsm on 336 sq mi.
Gwinnett has a density of 1,927ppsm on 440 sq mi and it does that with having more land in place for office and industrial use.
Gwinnett is hardly the place for a density enthusiast... but you're picking a fight you can't win. Prince William is a suburban bedroom community on the suburban fringe of DC.
Gwinnett County is a core suburban county of Atlanta with suburban and exurban bedroom counties bordering it with a decent base of jobs, office space, and industrial properties.
This is where I grew up. Very dense suburbia, 24-hour public transit access, Franconia-Springfield Metro station is twelve minutes from the block I grew up on, so Metro and Metrobus were very much accessible. Extremely diverse, decent (though not great) walkability, tons of international flavor in shops, services, dining. So try it again...
Gwinnett definitely has the diversity. There's not a single place I saw in Gwinnett that could match the "urban-suburban" aesthetic of where I grew up (and I'm only talking that part of Woodbridge, not even Fairfax,where I also lived)...
Everything else you said, you seem to be arguing with yourself, because I'm not disputing that Prince William isn't a job base or a suburb or a bedroom community, or even that it isn't a "core" DC county. It definitely is part of DC, if not the core, and it's recognized as such for at least the last three decades. Jobs, transportation, and virtually every other facet of living in Prince William connects us to The District. Have fun arguing with yourself, though!
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