U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: More impressive Transit Expansion?
Sound Transit 3 (Seattle) 13 35.14%
Measure M (Los Angeles) 24 64.86%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-24-2018, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
6,151 posts, read 4,361,630 times
Reputation: 3830

Advertisements

L.A. backed itself into a corner by building freeways. Seattle backed itself into a corner by not building freeways.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-24-2018, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,537 posts, read 3,316,240 times
Reputation: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
L.A. backed itself into a corner by building freeways. Seattle backed itself into a corner by not building freeways.
Yet somehow Seattle actually has many more freeway miles per capita tha Los Angeles.

Highway & Motorway Fact Book: Index
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2018, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
6,151 posts, read 4,361,630 times
Reputation: 3830
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Easy View Post
Yet somehow Seattle actually has many more freeway miles per capita tha Los Angeles.

Highway & Motorway Fact Book: Index
That shows the effect of sprawl. Freeways, because they are free, are population multipliers. The more you build, the MORE you need to build.

Seattle is geographically constrained.

Seattle: 83.87 sq-mi
L.A.: 468.74 sq-mi






Last edited by CrazyDonkey; 05-24-2018 at 08:12 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2018, 08:25 PM
 
488 posts, read 191,852 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
Sound Transit's is a hybrid system, running 1500 VDC traction electrificaion, twice that of most light rail systems (750 DC)
Great point.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2018, 08:29 PM
 
488 posts, read 191,852 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
That shows the effect of sprawl. Freeways, because they are free, are population multipliers. The more you build, the MORE you need to build.

Seattle is geographically constrained.

Seattle: 83.87 sq-mi
L.A.: 468.74 sq-mi




To be fair, here’s a more complete map of Seattle’s highway system (since the LA one shows the full region).



http://us-atlas.com/images/132%20seat.jpg?crc=347671748
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2018, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,537 posts, read 3,316,240 times
Reputation: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
That shows the effect of sprawl. Freeways, because they are free, are population multipliers. The more you build, the MORE you need to build.

Seattle is geographically constrained.

Seattle: 83.87 sq-mi
L.A.: 468.74 sq-mi
I’m talking Metro not city limits. If Seattle is constrained and sprawl leads to more freeways, shouldn’t Seattle have fewer freeway miles than LA?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-24-2018, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,537 posts, read 3,316,240 times
Reputation: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_Adultman View Post
Great point.
Is it? Most light rail is 750V. The NYC subway is 600V. The DC metro is 750V. Seattle is 1,500V. What does that mean for operations? What advantage does that give Seattle? It’s unclear to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2018, 04:14 PM
 
488 posts, read 191,852 times
Reputation: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Easy View Post
Is it? Most light rail is 750V. The NYC subway is 600V. The DC metro is 750V. Seattle is 1,500V. What does that mean for operations? What advantage does that give Seattle? It’s unclear to me.
I looked into it and you're right - all that does is reduce the number of electrical substations, which has little impact on operations.

But I think the main thing that makes Seattle light rail more similar to heavy rail or at least light metro is the grade separation. That allows for 4 car trains and higher frequencies. The MLK at-grade section is the unfortunate segment that sticks out like a sore thumb and it will reduce peak headways from potentially every 90 seconds to every 3-4 minutes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-25-2018, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
2,537 posts, read 3,316,240 times
Reputation: 1678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_Adultman View Post
I looked into it and you're right - all that does is reduce the number of electrical substations, which has little impact on operations.

But I think the main thing that makes Seattle light rail more similar to heavy rail or at least light metro is the grade separation. That allows for 4 car trains and higher frequencies. The MLK at-grade section is the unfortunate segment that sticks out like a sore thumb and it will reduce peak headways from potentially every 90 seconds to every 3-4 minutes.
Reducing the amount of substations may still be a good thing. In LA we have enough substations to run 270 ft lrv’s every 3-5 min in both directions. But I think that we’re maxed out. To run 360 ft trains like Seattle we’d have to add 25% more substations. Maybe Seattle added that capacity for less money. I don’t know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-29-2018, 11:52 AM
 
488 posts, read 191,852 times
Reputation: 393
Here is a better map of the fully funded Seattle build out that's part of Sound Transit 3:



https://78.media.tumblr.com/5d04af8f...c4oo1_1280.jpg
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > General U.S. > City vs. City
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top