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So I find myself in a unique position in between jobs and being recruited to several locations nationally. I'm mulling over the 3 options in the thread title. I'm looking for objective input from people who have knowledge on these areas, though I'm sure the typical obnoxious blind homerism will be present.
Here's the situation:
Grand Rapids - I moved here ten years ago from Phoenix and grew to absolutely love it. I have a soft spot for underdog cities, and watching the local development scene explode has been very enjoyable. Surprisingly of the 3 metros it has the strongest population growth, strongest economic growth, and lowest unemployment. It also has the strongest employment base for the sector I work in (engineering). I am currently being recruited by the largest Hospital/Health organization in the region that anchors the bio-med cluster driving all of the regional economic growth. If I stay in GR I will make the most $, but the difference among all cities is about a $10k range so not a real deal breaker.
Louisville - I have been familiar with Louisville for the last 10 years. I have a strong friend base there, as well as some family. I also find Louisville to be an underrated city. It has a particularly strong gay scene which I enjoy, but don't really get too involved in. The job in Louisville is most tailored to my skillset. It's the lowest starting salary but still quite livable. I've always had it in the back of my mind that i'd move to Louisville, but now that i'm actually faced with it I'm not as motivated as I thought I would be. Of the 3 options I find it the least appealing(though that's all relative because I don't really find any of them unappealing)
Hampton Roads/Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Tidewater Area (I've never been sure the official name)- I've always been curious about this area, and I know the least about it. It's the largest of the metro's I'm considering, it also appears to be the most sprawled from what I can tell. It has the weakest population growth, and slowest growing economy. In my opinion it has the best location with proximity to other great cities, and the most favorable climate. I'd be working for a company doing things very similar to what I've been doing in Grand Rapids. The concern is that if this job didn't work out, or if the economy went south, this area has the least amount of jobs of the three (for my field). I find the area attractive, and i've always been a sucker for an adventure. Right now my curious side has me leaning toward this option.
I welcome any input Understand that i've never been a weather wimp, I don't make life choices based on weather, so saying city x wins because of weather will have no meaning to me. I also don't care much about superfluous things like cultural amenities, shopping, or sports franchises. I've lived in much bigger cities than all of these, and rarely took part in any of it. I've found everything I need in what Grand Rapids has to offer, and have enjoyed it's cultural amenities. What I enjoy about Grand Rapids is the proximity to beautiful nature, the amazing people, and the character and vibe of the city. If I leave the city I would hope to find it in the next place. I know it can be replaced in Louisville. What about Virginia?
Congrats on your options! I have ZERO insight into your decision...you have far more knowledge of these places than I do.
I've always liked GR and Louisville as well...ultimately I'd probably pick Louisville but again this is coming from a place of very little firsthand experience and I have different needs than you do anyway.
I welcome any input Understand that i've never been a weather wimp, I don't make life choices based on weather, so saying city x wins because of weather will have no meaning to me. I also don't care much about superfluous things like cultural amenities, shopping, or sports franchises. I've lived in much bigger cities than all of these, and rarely took part in any of it. I've found everything I need in what Grand Rapids has to offer, and have enjoyed it's cultural amenities. What I enjoy about Grand Rapids is the proximity to beautiful nature, the amazing people, and the character and vibe of the city. If I leave the city I would hope to find it in the next place. I know it can be replaced in Louisville. What about Virginia?
I just want to begin by saying two things; one, that I'm very similar in how I consider places to live. I'm a sports fanatic and I could give less than a damn about if the city I enjoy has a major sports team. I also have lived many places and in different climates. I really enjoy Western New York and while the weather isn't necessarily ideal, if it checked a few more boxes, I could be happy there. So its refreshing to hear a person with a similar countenance...
Two, there is no better feeling than being wanted, so congratulations on the bidding war. How soon do you have to make a decision?
I don't know Louisville or GR, but I'll try to outline Hampton Roads based of off what you stated. And around here just say Tidewarer, but nationally Hampton Roads or Southeast Virginia works...
I don't find the nature to be all that great here. There is water everywhere, bays, swamps, inlets, rivers, beaches (there are many). If you are at peace with water, this area will be comfortable for you. Unfortunately, this is an extremely low-lying area as well and when it even rains slightly, there are parts of the area that flood easily. Heavier rain, and it gets ugly...
There are some interesting bird species here, as well as some interesting insects with all the water around. If you prefer hillier terrain, be advised that this area is really flat...
The people can take some getting used to. As am example I'd point to the generally mediocre economy as evidence of the ceiling here. This isn't an area that naturally encourages creativity, everything is safe and conservative, and you see it in the locals. These aren't the nicest people around, particularly on the Southside, and there is an abnormal amount if pessimism to me...
One of the biggest things of note is that the makeup of this area is pretty provincial. There are two regions of Hampton Roads, the Southside (Norfolk/Virginia Beach and surroundings), which bleeds into NE North Carolina, and the Peninsula (Hampton/Newport News and surroundings), which bleeds into metro Richmond. They really are two distinct metros that coexist in each other's orbit, and grew together over time. Not the same place, and the geographic barrier of the bay that can be a real pain if the bridges get backed up, further serve to highlight distinctions between the two sides...
I think the Peninsula has a better togetherness and happier people than the Southside, if only slightly. The Peninsula has more of a working class feature, seems more dated. The entire area is somewhat military-centric, though there are swaths around here where it isn't oppressive. The entire area is service-oriented as there's a huge tourist economy. I think that plays into the orientation here, less wealthy but a general resort area, so people lack urgency. Everybody is on vacation lol...
That said, I fell in love with Virginia Beach. The positives greatly outweigh the negatives, and there will be a measure of sadness when I leave in May. It is a really good place to live and it's easy to get comfortable here. I'm not really fond of the other cities here, but I have a better appreciation for the area than I had before...
If you have the time to, definitely pay a visit (I had a more romanticized idea of the area as a visitor), and take my anecdotes with a grain of salt, of course. I'm not from here, nor a long timer, and there are people who enjoy the area much more than I do. Maybe you're one of those people and good luck in your decision!
I really feel like Louisville is a better fit for you.
VA Beach may have a SLIGHTLY larger metro but it feels like a smaller city than Louisville because it is. Louisville is alot of what you love about GR but also 180 degrees different which will make it fun. The core of the tidewater cities is much smaller than Louisville. You may be "familiar" with Louisville but its just so hard to emphasize what is great about this city without knowing the nooks and crannies and all the festivals and events. The Tidewater is simply too sprawled out.
Louisville has similar weather to the Tidewater but an amenity and growth package similar to GR but IMO a step up. Louisville's events and concerts are unprecedented in the other cities.
Just look at the draws for Derby, Thunder, and major music festivals of which there are now 4 which will draw 50,000 plus including Forecastle, Bourbon and Beyond, Louder than Life, and Hometown Rising. I know those other two towns have some great festivals and culture, but Louisville seems to just have a more fun vibe. The massive zombie walks, 100k people at the St Patrick's parade in one of the best urban neighborhoods in any midsized city, three massive pride parades, Actor's theatre and about a dozen other places to watch performing arts. And now, a massive new 300M pro soccer stadium district in one of the most underrated neighborhoods between Chicago and Atlanta, Butchertown.
GR is certainly not beating Louisville by much if at all the economy department and being a southeastern, city, it really has not hit its stride. GR boosts its metro quite a bit with satellite towns...Louisville feels a good clip larger in the urban core, particularly when you count downtown New Albany and Jeffersonville, two awesome options which are a fraction of the cost of anything in the other cities.
The other nice thing about Louisville is there are 10 MILLION people within 125 miles. Take that out a bit further and the population approaches parts of the NE megalopolis because Chicago and Atlanta are only a five hour drive. Louisville also is an hour flight to most major cities and now finally has several west coast flights, including Vegas, LA, and Phoenix. VA Beach is easy to drive to Charlotte or the lower part of the NE megalopolis, but I think you will be stuck on longer flights more particularly to visit west.
If you come down to Louisville, I'd be happy to show you around. It's easy to have a superficial appreciation for the city, but I'd really have to get you on the ground in the up and coming areas to see why there's so much excitement about this city. It's really drawing a lot of young creatives.
Money is a wash. Cost of living indicators show Louisville is my guesss a minimum of 5- 10k cheaper than the other two especially in insurance (Tidewater has some crazy flood and hurricane insurance), healthcare, and especially groceries (Louisville food is cheap and no sales tax on groceries).
So I find myself in a unique position in between jobs and being recruited to several locations nationally. I'm mulling over the 3 options in the thread title. I'm looking for objective input from people who have knowledge on these areas, though I'm sure the typical obnoxious blind homerism will be present.
Here's the situation:
Grand Rapids - I moved here ten years ago from Phoenix and grew to absolutely love it. I have a soft spot for underdog cities, and watching the local development scene explode has been very enjoyable. Surprisingly of the 3 metros it has the strongest population growth, strongest economic growth, and lowest unemployment. It also has the strongest employment base for the sector I work in (engineering). I am currently being recruited by the largest Hospital/Health organization in the region that anchors the bio-med cluster driving all of the regional economic growth. If I stay in GR I will make the most $, but the difference among all cities is about a $10k range so not a real deal breaker.
Louisville - I have been familiar with Louisville for the last 10 years. I have a strong friend base there, as well as some family. I also find Louisville to be an underrated city. It has a particularly strong gay scene which I enjoy, but don't really get too involved in. The job in Louisville is most tailored to my skillset. It's the lowest starting salary but still quite livable. I've always had it in the back of my mind that i'd move to Louisville, but now that i'm actually faced with it I'm not as motivated as I thought I would be. Of the 3 options I find it the least appealing(though that's all relative because I don't really find any of them unappealing)
Hampton Roads/Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Tidewater Area (I've never been sure the official name)- I've always been curious about this area, and I know the least about it. It's the largest of the metro's I'm considering, it also appears to be the most sprawled from what I can tell. It has the weakest population growth, and slowest growing economy. In my opinion it has the best location with proximity to other great cities, and the most favorable climate. I'd be working for a company doing things very similar to what I've been doing in Grand Rapids. The concern is that if this job didn't work out, or if the economy went south, this area has the least amount of jobs of the three (for my field). I find the area attractive, and i've always been a sucker for an adventure. Right now my curious side has me leaning toward this option.
I welcome any input Understand that i've never been a weather wimp, I don't make life choices based on weather, so saying city x wins because of weather will have no meaning to me. I also don't care much about superfluous things like cultural amenities, shopping, or sports franchises. I've lived in much bigger cities than all of these, and rarely took part in any of it. I've found everything I need in what Grand Rapids has to offer, and have enjoyed it's cultural amenities. What I enjoy about Grand Rapids is the proximity to beautiful nature, the amazing people, and the character and vibe of the city. If I leave the city I would hope to find it in the next place. I know it can be replaced in Louisville. What about Virginia?
Wow congratulations. This is exciting!
My ranking would be Louisville, Grand Rapids, then Hampton Roads.
Louisville Pros: Culture, nature, urban character, easy to get around. Louisville has an impressive arts scene and growing food culture. Compared to some other similarly sized cities, real estate is affordable and in well established neighborhoods like the Highlands, Nulu, Bardstown Rd etc. Louisville is a come as you are type of city. The people are friendly and share southern and midwestern qualities. The energy around Louisville is similar to Grand Rapids in that it is pro business. While Kentucky taxes are not the best in the nation, they make up for it in the low cost of living. Your friends are there.
Louisville Cons: If you have lived in bigger cities you may long for more stuff (l know you said you didn't care). Louisville has no light rail and charges a toll to get back and forth to Indiana via I 65. Crime and Meth continue to plague the fabric of the city. More vagrants and homeless people than the other cities.
Grand Rapids Pros: Growing city, city actively seeks white collar jobs, affordable housing, younger vibe than the others, scenery is not far away. Certain delicacies that are not legal yet in the other two states ☺️. You are already there so you wouldn't have to leave.... moving sucks....
Grand Rapids Cons: Not as developed as the other cities. Nearest large city is more than 2 hours away.
Hampton Roads Pros: Closest to the North East corridor, Amazon will have a tertiary effect, history galore, prideful citizens, the beach. I like Norfolk and NOVA. They are the best parts of Virginia for me. Located in a blue state.
Hampton Roads Cons: Run down areas that have not changed, weak economy, weak population growth, crime, and not the best housing options.
This is a tough call. I would rule out Hampton Roads though.
All depends on what you want to call it. Locals may use Tidewater. Official name is Hampton Roads. Some say the Norfolk MSA. Others say the Norfolk/Virginia Beach MSA. Pay is low in this area. Rent is high. Rent is high in Virginia overall; pay, in Virginia, depends on what you do.
I live in Hampton Roads and I would rule it out. Unless you're making like $20 an hour here it is a complete waste of time. What you can get, as far as what you should be able to afford, for less than $20 an hour you can get anywhere. I'm not originally from Hampton Roads so I am probably biased in that way.
You might want to look at Louisville. Again, probably biased because I'm from the Midwest, but if you're looking at population Louisville is a larger city than any in Hampton Roads and Hampton Roads is only like 200,000 larger for a metro area. But that means a lot of small cities. The largest city, Virginia Beach, is more like an urban county than an actual city, but that seems to be the trend in Virginia, if you look at areas like Fairfax County. Actual cities are getting left behind; some prefer them for their authenticity but most do not care and just want a nice place to live. I actually work in Norfolk so it makes sense to live here, but I have lived in Virginia Beach and Chesapeake. Neither were really for me but to each their own.
Some of the ran down areas have changed. Definitely since I moved here like 10 years ago. A lot of it is that they look better on the outside but they are the same otherwise. When I first came here, you could live anywhere in Norfolk you desired. There were so many vacancies. Now it is a lot different. Prices are higher, there is infill and some of the new housing is quite large. The population of the city has increased. But the population of the other cities, or rather, counties, has increased as well. The city is bustling but you can still be a victim of crime. That is never going to change.
They're working on getting rid of the housing projects in Norfolk so I expect to see crime rates increase in the city overall, similar to what has happened in Chicago. They have already built a few high rise homeless shelters in Hampton Roads so the fun is just beginning. If that happens the neighborhoods far from the gentrified areas will only continue to get worse, as will fringe neighborhoods closer to Virginia Beach. Way out like Northampton Boulevard, Lake Wright, etc. Maybe Little Creek, which is sort of squeezed because of gentrification on East Beach and Ocean View. The city wants to be the next New York, DC, whatever but there isn't enough here, of anything, to make it happen on that level.
All depends on what you want to call it. Locals may use Tidewater. Official name is Hampton Roads. Some say the Norfolk MSA. Others say the Norfolk/Virginia Beach MSA. Pay is low in this area. Rent is high. Rent is high in Virginia overall; pay, in Virginia, depends on what you do.
I live in Hampton Roads and I would rule it out. Unless you're making like $20 an hour here it is a complete waste of time. What you can get, as far as what you should be able to afford, for less than $20 an hour you can get anywhere. I'm not originally from Hampton Roads so I am probably biased in that way.
You might want to look at Louisville. Again, probably biased because I'm from the Midwest, but if you're looking at population Louisville is a larger city than any in Hampton Roads and Hampton Roads is only like 200,000 larger for a metro area. But that means a lot of small cities. The largest city, Virginia Beach, is more like an urban county than an actual city, but that seems to be the trend in Virginia, if you look at areas like Fairfax County. Actual cities are getting left behind; some prefer them for their authenticity but most do not care and just want a nice place to live. I actually work in Norfolk so it makes sense to live here, but I have lived in Virginia Beach and Chesapeake. Neither were really for me but to each their own.
Some of the ran down areas have changed. Definitely since I moved here like 10 years ago. A lot of it is that they look better on the outside but they are the same otherwise. When I first came here, you could live anywhere in Norfolk you desired. There were so many vacancies. Now it is a lot different. Prices are higher, there is infill and some of the new housing is quite large. The population of the city has increased. But the population of the other cities, or rather, counties, has increased as well. The city is bustling but you can still be a victim of crime. That is never going to change.
They're working on getting rid of the housing projects in Norfolk so I expect to see crime rates increase in the city overall, similar to what has happened in Chicago. They have already built a few high rise homeless shelters in Hampton Roads so the fun is just beginning. If that happens the neighborhoods far from the gentrified areas will only continue to get worse, as will fringe neighborhoods closer to Virginia Beach. Way out like Northampton Boulevard, Lake Wright, etc. Maybe Little Creek, which is sort of squeezed because of gentrification on East Beach and Ocean View. The city wants to be the next New York, DC, whatever but there isn't enough here, of anything, to make it happen on that level.
The overall income and cost of living ratios are greater in Richmond and NoVa. If she had an offer in Richmond I would tell her to take Richmond easily, as her dollar would go further and she'd receive a much greater cultural experience living in Rich than anywhere out here...
I passed through Louisville some years back on my way to Indy, and I can't imagine choosing SEVA over GR or Louisville...
Norfolk and Virginia Beach both have populations in slight decline, as the population of the entire region increases incrementally. I think its important to note that the Southside has a population of about ~1.195 million, according to 2017 estimates. This is the "real feel" you get here. Southside and the Peninsula are distinct and really seperate from each other. How often do you go from this side across the bay? I worked at a branch in Hampton for about 2.5 weeks and the commute was brutal, and in my 1.5 years here, I've found on both sides, the vast majority of people don't often cross the water; the ones who do are clearly in the minority...
So the size of the Southside is right on par with GR and Louisville, I don't think anyone would find this area to feel much larger than either. The gift and the curse is that there is no true main city here. Norfolk is the traditional city and has the traditional downtown, but you know my belief is that it and VB are co-anchors and twin cities of sort. Obviously there is a ton of back and forth between Nfk and VB residents (part of why I say this is the same city), but in large part, one can do everything in one city that they can do in the other. Norfolk has the legacy museums and festivals and ODU, other than that? Both have their own economic nucleus, beaches, shopping, nightlife, dining, and maybe this dynamic is an allure for someone when considering the other two cities in comparison...
I don't find hardly anywhere here to be particularly run down. Some of the areas in Norfolk with that reputation (Oceanview, Huntersville, etc) have probably long since gentrified, as you mentioned....
A fun case study is the difference around how people interact in both cities. Both cities are drawn along black/white lines and there is an undercurrent of racism here (though not overt), but Virginia Beach is the most integrated and most diverse city in the area, on both sides. Also the blue collar/white collar/resort dichotomy...
But I'm with you and everyone else, Hampton Roads would be the last choice of these three cities. If she does choose to try it out here, I'd pick Virginia Beach-Norfolk specifically, everywhere else is definitely a suburb and the Peninsula is boring...
The overall income and cost of living ratios are greater in Richmond and NoVa. If she had an offer in Richmond I would tell her to take Richmond easily, as her dollar would go further and she'd receive a much greater cultural experience living in Rich than anywhere out here...
I passed through Louisville some years back on my way to Indy, and I can't imagine choosing SEVA over GR or Louisville...
Norfolk and Virginia Beach both have populations in slight decline, as the population of the entire region increases incrementally. I think its important to note that the Southside has a population of about ~1.195 million, according to 2017 estimates. This is the "real feel" you get here. Southside and the Peninsula are distinct and really seperate from each other. How often do you go from this side across the bay? I worked at a branch in Hampton for about 2.5 weeks and the commute was brutal, and in my 1.5 years here, I've found on both sides, the vast majority of people don't often cross the water; the ones who do are clearly in the minority...
So the size of the Southside is right on par with GR and Louisville, I don't think anyone would find this area to feel much larger than either. The gift and the curse is that there is no true main city here. Norfolk is the traditional city and has the traditional downtown, but you know my belief is that it and VB are co-anchors and twin cities of sort. Obviously there is a ton of back and forth between Nfk and VB residents (part of why I say this is the same city), but in large part, one can do everything in one city that they can do in the other. Norfolk has the legacy museums and festivals and ODU, other than that? Both have their own economic nucleus, beaches, shopping, nightlife, dining, and maybe this dynamic is an allure for someone when considering the other two cities in comparison...
I don't find hardly anywhere here to be particularly run down. Some of the areas in Norfolk with that reputation (Oceanview, Huntersville, etc) have probably long since gentrified, as you mentioned....
A fun case study is the difference around how people interact in both cities. Both cities are drawn along black/white lines and there is an undercurrent of racism here (though not overt), but Virginia Beach is the most integrated and most diverse city in the area, on both sides. Also the blue collar/white collar/resort dichotomy...
But I'm with you and everyone else, Hampton Roads would be the last choice of these three cities. If she does choose to try it out here, I'd pick Virginia Beach-Norfolk specifically, everywhere else is definitely a suburb and the Peninsula is boring...
Interesting points. I wish the Peninsula was better integrated with the Southside. But it would take more bridges and tunnels to make that happen. Even then it isn't like Norfork or Virginia Beach have the draw that say Manhattan and Brooklyn have in NYC. This place is more like Atlanta or LA, where you can bicker about first world problem differences between the neighborhoods.
The racism thing I don't really feel though. But I think I'm jaded being from Ohio. Racism can be really obvious up there. I do not doubt that it exists here and clearly stuff like Virginia Beach not wanting light rail because of the thought of Black and Brown criminals coming through is one example of it but Virginia is really good at hiding it. I more so felt some type of way out in Harrisonburg.
Richmond has an authenticity that Norfork paved over for urban renewal. Now Norfork is trying to gentrify the little it has left.
Things like cost of living I will be able to handle. I can take as long or move as quick as I need to. I haven't made any decisions and won't be rushed. Rents that i've researched in the Tidewater area are comparable to GR for places that I would consider. Right now I live in a walkable neighborhood adjacent to downtown and am blocks from several breweries, groceries, gym ect. I'm just across the river from the nightlife, but again I rarely partake. Rents are only slightly higher in Louisville for comparable neighborhoods, but are the same for suburban style communities. There doesn't seem to be too many urban/hip clusters in the Norfolk area that I can tell.
What's the reason for the lack of regional Identity? It seems almost sunbelt-esque for such an old established region.
Things like cost of living I will be able to handle. I can take as long or move as quick as I need to. I haven't made any decisions and won't be rushed. Rents that i've researched in the Tidewater area are comparable to GR for places that I would consider. Right now I live in a walkable neighborhood adjacent to downtown and am blocks from several breweries, groceries, gym ect. I'm just across the river from the nightlife, but again I rarely partake. Rents are only slightly higher in Louisville for comparable neighborhoods, but are the same for suburban style communities. There doesn't seem to be too many urban/hip clusters in the Norfolk area that I can tell.
What's the reason for the lack of regional Identity? It seems almost sunbelt-esque for such an old established region.
No there's a strong regional identity here. It's hard to explain, it's more a lack of cohesiveness...
Norfolk is the traditional center but the rest of the region developed into their own identities to the extent that Norfolk lost its appeal as "the city". Newport News and Hampton are geographically separated from Norfolk, so they developed their own amenities without the hassle of Norfolk. Virginia Beach was literally just a beach and much of the current city was Princess Anne County until the 1960s. The development of this area was always competitive and never united amongst the cities. When VB became a city it developed basic city amenities, much of which I'm told poached the appeal of Norfolk...
So whereas most suburbs can still be unique but gravitate around one major city, here there is no major city. On the Peninsula Newport News and Hampton share gravitas; on the Southside Norfolk and VB share gravitas...
There certainly aren't many urban clusters here in the purest sense. Downtown Norfolk is really cool and you could find a comparable area to live as you have in GR. To me, it's the only cool area of Norfolk. I don't like that it's so small, even for comparably-sized cities, and it has a dearth of artistic passions. But it's pretty and picturesque and has dining and nightlife and breweries and gyms, parks, it is a pretty good downtown. It's just small...
Town Center VB is the other downtown here, but is nontraditional. Downtown Norfolk is much stronger and Town Center is Sunbelt. But I live adjacent to Town Center, and its walkable and entertaining, but probably 2/3rds smaller than DT Nfk. It is a cool area and many young people and transplants live here...
Other than those two areas, there is no hip urban clusters. If Richmond was an option, it would arguably be the easiest city to choose on the list. I would definitely choose GR or Louisville over here, especially so given you have no ties here. Again, I think VB in particular is a wonderful secret and a great place to live, but nothing extraordinary about it, and certainly nothing here besides the proliferation of beaches and water activities that you couldn't get where you are or in Louisville!
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Understand that i've never been a weather wimp, I don't make life choices based on weather, so saying city x wins because of weather will have no meaning to me. I also don't care much about superfluous things like cultural amenities, shopping, or sports franchises. I've lived in much bigger cities than all of these, and rarely took part in any of it. I've found everything I need in what Grand Rapids has to offer, and have enjoyed it's cultural amenities. What I enjoy about Grand Rapids is the proximity to beautiful nature, the amazing people, and the character and vibe of the city. If I leave the city I would hope to find it in the next place. I know it can be replaced in Louisville. What about Virginia?
