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As I can see with any city levying congestion charge is more surprise bills from the rental car companies for the privilege of using their pay by plate system. And any glitches that could cause the toll collection to charge extra fees.
So you saw the post about how light rail ridership is at an all time high and... your take away was to not build more light rail? Coolio.
You confuse rail with transit. They are not the same. You have trouble getting that point through your head.
Spend billions on rail like LA and Dallas---result---fewer people than ever use transit. Spend more on bus like Houston---more people ride transit.
Now maybe if you spend tens of billions like Seattle---but even Seattle is investing heavily in bus. Their tunnel downtown is designed to help get buses through.
no. with the reaction that the single toll on 400 got? no way! the amount of bureaucracy this would create, not to mention the limits on individual liberty, would be too much for atlantans to swallow, especially those who have been here a lot longer than everybody else and didn't create this problem.
it would be a lot simpler of a solution to increase the gas tax to a level where the true cost of all the roads, expansions, pollution mitigation, signalling, and other costs associated with driving would finally be reflected in the cost of driving. and it wouldn't smack of a social engineering project.
if you drive, you pay as you go. if you take transit, well, it's not an uber, the trains and buses are going to run whether you're on them or not, so you pay a fare to access the system. and if you walk, you don't have to pay anything. this seems like the fairest solution to me.
Car drivers living 30 miles out from the city pays way less property taxes yet the person that walks or bikes a half mile to work put so little wear / cost on the road network it is basically a rounding error it is so small.
Sure seems silly to get so much road funding from general taxes. Our road network is over extended and underfunded. We need to hold drivers more accountable for paying their fair share. The best way to do that is e-tolls / congestion pricing so we improve traffic flow while we are at it.
The current funding model for roads is unsustainable. You can't complain about lack of more roads / highways, too many pot holes, or more needed maintenance overhauls and not be willing to pay for it directly.
One idea I think would be good is to tax the heck out of the trucks. The average big rig causes 4000 (yes, 4000) times the wear and tear on a roadway then the average automobile. If all trucks were eliminated - we'd not be having this discussion, since the cost to maintain the highway network would be far lower than it is now. And yet the trucking industry pays very, very little towards the costs they impose on the road network.
If we're going to make everybody pay for what they use, start from the top and work your way down. Make the trucks pay their fair share, and then make the drivers pay their fair share, which would be far less than it would be without taxing the trucks.
And yet, nobody dares to tax the trucking industry. Know why? Because they have the ability to buy off our elected officials, unlike us common folk.
Until this happens, I will vehemently oppose any additional taxation for roads and transport. I urge others to do the same.
One idea I think would be good is to tax the heck out of the trucks. The average big rig causes 4000 (yes, 4000) times the wear and tear on a roadway then the average automobile. If all trucks were eliminated - we'd not be having this discussion, since the cost to maintain the highway network would be far lower than it is now. And yet the trucking industry pays very, very little towards the costs they impose on the road network.
If we're going to make everybody pay for what they use, start from the top and work your way down. Make the trucks pay their fair share, and then make the drivers pay their fair share, which would be far less than it would be without taxing the trucks.
And yet, nobody dares to tax the trucking industry. Know why? Because they have the ability to buy off our elected officials, unlike us common folk.
Until this happens, I will vehemently oppose any additional taxation for roads and transport. I urge others to do the same.
That's a non-starter with all of the warehouses/distribution centers going up in Coweta and Henry Counties. For the damage that's been done, you'd be risking a significant loss of jobs that people depend on if we make it harder for them to do business. Plus, the goods that we purchase will still have to be transported somehow and some way. So that tax is just be passed on to consumers in the store in the form of higher prices.
You're better off convincing leaders, going forward, to stop actively courting these warehouses/distribution centers that generate so much traffic from big rigs and instead seek economic investment that wouldn't bring the problems you describe. Or better yet, convince residents/leaders in those jurisdictions to pay for the necessary infrastructure improvements to support such investments if they're going to actively pursue them.
In my opinion, these facilities should be going into more rural communities, where they're not competing with commuter/retail traffic.
Last edited by citidata18; 01-26-2019 at 09:30 AM..
Trucks are essential. They should also directly pay for the wear they put on roads. But fairly like everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_Thinker
Until this happens, I will vehemently oppose any additional taxation for roads and transport. I urge others to do the same.
Yep agreed. I think we should even scrap most of the existing funding roads. If roads / highways need to be rebuilt / expanded toll the users directly to pay for it.
If they are really saving $100K seems like no reason they can't chip in a little extra to cover that 10 additional miles of road they are using every day. Since a lot of road funding comes from property taxes they will actually be paying less for roads!
They do. If someone lives far out and commutes into your precious part of the city which is all yours and you pay for, they are almost certainly using federal and state roads for the vast majority of their trip. Those are not funded by property taxes. They are funded by fuel taxes. If they live far out, they pay a fuel tax on every gallon of gas they buy for federal and state routes (which you, as a non-driver do to pay), in addition to their property taxes for local roads.
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Originally Posted by jsvh
Car drivers living 30 miles out from the city pays way less property taxes yet the person that walks or bikes a half mile to work put so little wear / cost on the road network it is basically a rounding error it is so small.
Yep...and that person who lives thirty miles out probably pays several hundred or even more than a thousand dollars a year towards the network, while a walker like you pays next to nothing. Oh, but there's more...those people also pay a sales tax of hundreds of dollars towards trains and busses that they don't use so that you as the user don't have to pay as much.
Would you rather put more tolls on driver to pay slightly more towards their roads and give up the transit tax, or keep drivers paying the hundreds and thousands of dollars they are now towards both? Those are your two choices.
Quote:
Sure seems silly to get so much road funding from general taxes. Our road network is over extended and underfunded. We need to hold drivers more accountable for paying their fair share.
Ahh...but general funding does not go much towards roads, at least highways and state routes. It's 90% fuel tax. Told you that a hundred times. You just don't want to believe it.
Quote:
The current funding model for roads is unsustainable. You can't complain about lack of more roads / highways, too many pot holes, or more needed maintenance overhauls and not be willing to pay for it directly.
We took on a huge increase in fuel tax a few years ago with nary a conversation, much less an uproar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsvh
Yep agreed. I think we should even scrap most of the existing funding roads. If roads / highways need to be rebuilt / expanded toll the users directly to pay for it.
When you pay more than 15% of your transportation costs, we'll talk about increasing the costs on everyone else. Don't say you're fine with it. Actually advocate for it. Advocate for higher transit fares to cover the actual costs. Once we see you doing that, we can take you more seriously to see what your actual motives are.
One idea I think would be good is to tax the heck out of the trucks. The average big rig causes 4000 (yes, 4000) times the wear and tear on a roadway then the average automobile. If all trucks were eliminated - we'd not be having this discussion, since the cost to maintain the highway network would be far lower than it is now. And yet the trucking industry pays very, very little towards the costs they impose on the road network.
If we're going to make everybody pay for what they use, start from the top and work your way down. Make the trucks pay their fair share, and then make the drivers pay their fair share, which would be far less than it would be without taxing the trucks.
And yet, nobody dares to tax the trucking industry. Know why? Because they have the ability to buy off our elected officials, unlike us common folk.
Until this happens, I will vehemently oppose any additional taxation for roads and transport. I urge others to do the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citidata18
That's a non-starter with all of the warehouses/distribution centers going up in Coweta and Henry Counties. For the damage that's been done, you'd be risking a significant loss of jobs that people depend on if we make it harder for them to do business. Plus, the goods that we purchase will still have to be transported somehow and some way. So that tax is just be passed on to consumers in the store in the form of higher prices.
citidata18 makes an excellent point that, even though freight trucks do much damage to the roads, freight trucks and the freight trucking industry are basically the backbone of the economy, because of how freight trucks transport all of the goods and raw materials that the economy functions off of.
If all freight trucking activity were to be eliminated, then there basically would be no economic activity because of how critically important freight trucks are in transporting all of the goods that consumers purchase and because of how critically important freight trucks are in transporting all of the raw materials that go into manufacturing and processing the goods that consumers purchase.
Plus, it must be noted that freight trucks do indeed pay more towards maintaining the road network because individual freight trucks purchase larger amounts of fuel and pay more in fuel taxes than individual passenger vehicles when they purchase fuel and pay fuel taxes.
It must also be noted that one of the most important intended uses of the Interstate system and of the road network as a whole is to allow for the very high-volume movement of large freight trucks to transport the goods and materials that directly power the overall economy.
Repairing damage done to the road network by the mass-volume movement of freight trucks that enable the economy to function is just a natural cost of doing business and having an economy.
Without freight trucks transporting goods and materials, the modern economy basically does not exist.
Freight trucks are not the scapegoat for all of our mobility and transportation issues.
Freight trucks are the reason why we have a robust economy and are able to enjoy the high standard-of-living that we have been able to enjoy in modern times in the first place.
People should keep in mind the critically important and leading role that trucks have played in helping to generate the prosperity that modern society has enjoyed and continues to enjoy before pointing the finger of blame at trucks for all of society's mobility and transportation problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citidata18
You're better off convincing leaders, going forward, to stop actively courting these warehouses/distribution centers that generate so much traffic from big rigs and instead seek economic investment that wouldn't bring the problems you describe. Or better yet, convince residents/leaders in those jurisdictions to pay for the necessary infrastructure improvements to support such investments if they're going to actively pursue them.
In my opinion, these facilities should be going into more rural communities, where they're not competing with commuter/retail traffic.
I agree that, ideally, warehousing and distribution centers should located in far-flung rural areas where the significant amount of freight truck traffic that they generate seemingly would not conflict very much with local commuter traffic in large major metro areas like Atlanta.
But the reality is that warehousing and distribution facilities not only want to be near the major population centers where most of the businesses they serve (grocery stores, clothing shops, restaurants, auto repair shops, etc, etc) are located in the highest densities, but also need to be near those major population centers... Not only because those major population centers are where all of the facilities they serve the most are located, but also because those major population centers are where the major airports are where many of the goods and materials that those warehouses store and distribute are flown in by airplane from other locations around the continent and the world.
I also agree that political leaders ideally should stop courting warehousing and distribution centers and aim to recruit the type of higher-end economic investment that is found in white-collar business districts like Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, Perimeter Center, Cumberland, Alpharetta and Peachtree Corners.
But the reality is that most areas cannot and will not be able to attract the type of higher-end white-collar business investment that is found in those few major business districts.
Most areas (like a Coweta County, a Henry County, etc) attract warehousing, distribution and manufacturing facilities that generate significant amounts of freight truck traffic because the white-collar business investment often only wants to go to certain areas (like the aforementioned white-collar business districts with urban/inner-suburban amenities) and because having warehousing/distribution and manufacturing/production/processing facilities in one's jurisdiction is better than having nothing at all.
It should be noted that those blue-collar warehousing, distribution, manufacturing, production, processing facilities that some people like to look down upon generate a very significant amount of revenue for local governments, both directly from property and income taxes, and indirectly from sales taxes.
Those blue-collar industrial facilities directly pay property taxes to the local jurisdictions they are located in, while their employees pay taxes on their incomes and on the retail purchases they make in those jurisdictions... All revenues from taxes that local jurisdictions could not collect if those blue-collar industrial facilities did not exist within their jurisdictions.
It should also be noted that jurisdictions like Coweta and Henry counties are not the only government jurisdictions in the Atlanta metro region where blue-collar warehousing, distribution, manufacturing, production and processing industrial facilities are located in significant quantities.
Core metro Atlanta counties like Clayton, DeKalb, Fulton, Cobb, and (especially) Gwinnett are home to numerous blue-collar industrial facilities that Southside suburban counties like Coweta and Henry often seem to get unfairly singled out for being the site of.
Heck, Fulton, Clayton, DeKalb, Gwinnett and even Cobb have even more of the type of blue-collar industrial facilities that some really seem to look down upon than Coweta and Henry counties... But because they are also home to large enclaves of affluent residents and upscale business and retail districts, those five core metro Atlanta counties do not seem to get called out anywhere near as much on having the numerous amount of blue-collar industrial facilities that counties like Coweta and Henry often get called out on more frequently for having relatively significant fewer of.
Other outlying metro Atlanta region counties like Rockdale, Newton, Jackson, Douglas, Hall, and even Forsyth and Cherokee counties also feature a significant and noticeable number of blue-collar industrial facilities that pay heavily into those counties' tax digests.
It should also be noted that upscale major business districts like Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead, Emory, Perimeter Center, Cumberland, Alpharetta and Peachtree Corners also generate much freight truck traffic.
All of the office, retail and healthcare facilities that are located in those upscale business districts get their goods and operating materials and supplies delivered by freight truck... Freight truck deliveries often made from the warehousing, distribution and processing facilities in outlying areas that some people like to deride as being beneath the dignity of the community when it comes to business and economic development.
Plus, it must be noted that freight trucks do indeed pay more towards maintaining the road network because individual freight trucks purchase larger amounts of fuel and pay more in fuel taxes than individual passenger vehicles when they purchase fuel and pay fuel taxes.
Indeed. Georgia's fuel tax rates are 27.5¢ per gallon for gas and 30.8¢ per gallon for diesel (a 2.5% increase over last year). Federal rates are 18.4¢ per gallon for gas and 23.4¢ per gallon for diesel. That means that in Georgia, car drivers are paying 45.9¢ per gallon, while truck drivers are paying 54.2¢ per gallon. But, then there's the fact that semi trucks get much fewer miles per gallon than cars. So, while a car might get 20 MPG (most get more), a modern aerodynamic semi truck might get 7-10. Most get less. So, for 100 miles of driving, a car will use five gallons, and pay around $2.30 in fuel taxes, while a semi truck will use 15 gallons and pay $8.13 in fuel taxes (3.5 times as much).
Georgia's tax rates are higher than 2/3 of other states.
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