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Old 02-13-2019, 08:49 PM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Main issue with Seattle and some of Austin is geographical barriers near the populated area which limit that amount of real estate they can propose for roads
Well Austin did what Atlanta has done and built nothing for decades. They decided to limit their network to 2 N-S roads, I-35 and Mo-Pac and assumed that if they didn't build roads to environmentally sensitive East Austin and Southwest Austin, nobody would move there. But they did. They've been scrambling to catch up with toll roads, building one to the NW (183), one to the NE (290), a 3rd N-S route (130), an E-W route south of downtown (71) and a partial loop in the North (45N) and in the South (45SW) and are planning ones to the SE (183) and SW (290/71).

Atlanta went from 3 million in 1990 to nearly 6 million today with minimal road improvements. Austin went from 585k in 1980 to 850k in 1990 to over 2.1 million today and only started their expansion in the last 10 years or so. They are paying for their "don't build it and they won't come" attitude.
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:19 AM
 
1,420 posts, read 1,612,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Main issue with Seattle and some of Austin is geographical barriers near the populated area which limit the amount of real estate they can propose for roads
This is the case in every city including Atlanta and why alternative modes of travel are more efficient and effective in an urban environment. At some point (hopefully) this region/state will figure this out.
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:39 PM
 
1,324 posts, read 571,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Well Austin did what Atlanta has done and built nothing for decades. They decided to limit their network to 2 N-S roads, I-35 and Mo-Pac and assumed that if they didn't build roads to environmentally sensitive East Austin and Southwest Austin, nobody would move there. But they did. They've been scrambling to catch up with toll roads, building one to the NW (183), one to the NE (290), a 3rd N-S route (130), an E-W route south of downtown (71) and a partial loop in the North (45N) and in the South (45SW) and are planning ones to the SE (183) and SW (290/71).

Atlanta went from 3 million in 1990 to nearly 6 million today with minimal road improvements. Austin went from 585k in 1980 to 850k in 1990 to over 2.1 million today and only started their expansion in the last 10 years or so. They are paying for their "don't build it and they won't come" attitude.
Well admittedly Austin did kind of shock me moving there. I wasn't expecting it to be such a tech centre nor did I expect it to be as Californian as it is. What I am trying to figure out is with DFW, Houston and San Antonio pretty much surrounding Austin, is how and why it attracted so much growth so rapidly, because it certainly is far from the cheapest place in Texas to live in. I guess I was expecting someplace like Waco, given that...even the roads they currently have were kind of a surprise to me. I use 183 and 45 Toll Roads fairly frequently. For 130, I believe 130 actually has a more convoluted history behind it than being a artery for Austin. I believe its initial conception was to bypass Austin, as well as Waco and Temple but was ceased due to political opposition from local farm owners.

One thing a bit different though in Austin than Atlanta however in the construction of their toll roads is, alot of that land was still vacant during the conception of those roads. 183 Toll goes through Cedar Park and Laender both of which are still establishing as suburbs so there was no development in the path of those 183. 45 goes through far North Austin (or far South) both of which are largely uninhabited. 183 also only recently saw development in its path. 290 there was development but it's still fairly rural, same goes for 71.

Also I am hoping they convert 290 to a full toll road between Austin and Houston. I can't understand how Texas of all places has no direct limited access road between Houston and Austin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
This is the case in every city including Atlanta and why alternative modes of travel are more efficient and effective in an urban environment. At some point (hopefully) this region/state will figure this out.
It is definitely true that Atlanta needs alternate means to transportation however there is a chicken and the egg riddle. Who is really holding it back? The state or the populous? The state may very well be afraid of investing multi billion dollars worth of transit without the guarantee that the populous would be willing to use those methods.

Geographical Barriers are present in many cities but nowhere near to the decree of what is seen in places like Seattle, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, some parts of Los Angeles, Western Austin (see West Hills and the Colorado River) which are littered in Lakes, Sounds and Mountains well into their metro, making connecting communities difficult.

Atlanta has Geographical barriers however they are nowhere near as extreme until you get about 50 miles north of Downtown. Atlanta's issue was more so nimbys and foresight than Geographical related matters.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Kirkwood
22,843 posts, read 16,832,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
It is definitely true that Atlanta needs alternate means to transportation however there is a chicken and the egg riddle. Who is really holding it back? The state or the populous? The state may very well be afraid of investing multi billion dollars worth of transit without the guarantee that the populous would be willing to use those methods.

Geographical Barriers are present in many cities but nowhere near to the decree of what is seen in places like Seattle, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, some parts of Los Angeles, Western Austin (see West Hills and the Colorado River) which are littered in Lakes, Sounds and Mountains well into their metro, making connecting communities difficult.

Atlanta has Geographical barriers however they are nowhere near as extreme until you get about 50 miles north of Downtown. Atlanta's issue was more so nimbys and foresight than Geographical related matters.
The state of Georgia, by passing laws that fuel revenue cannot be spent on transit as well as not funding MARTA.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Georgia
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I've lived around Atlanta for most of the past 50 years- and I do believe the hype! Seeing is believing.
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:26 PM
 
1,420 posts, read 1,612,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
It is definitely true that Atlanta needs alternate means to transportation however there is a chicken and the egg riddle. Who is really holding it back? The state or the populous? The state may very well be afraid of investing multi billion dollars worth of transit without the guarantee that the populous would be willing to use those methods.

Geographical Barriers are present in many cities but nowhere near to the decree of what is seen in places like Seattle, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, some parts of Los Angeles, Western Austin (see West Hills and the Colorado River) which are littered in Lakes, Sounds and Mountains well into their metro, making connecting communities difficult.

Atlanta has Geographical barriers however they are nowhere near as extreme until you get about 50 miles north of Downtown. Atlanta's issue was more so nimbys and foresight than Geographical related matters.
I wasn't speaking of geographical barriers but city barriers. Cities can't continue building roads because there's city there. Most cities do not even attempt to "fix" congestion by continuing to build roads because it would destroy neighborhoods and create a landscape that's bleak.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:07 PM
bu2
 
9,365 posts, read 6,005,269 times
Reputation: 3820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Well admittedly Austin did kind of shock me moving there. I wasn't expecting it to be such a tech centre nor did I expect it to be as Californian as it is. What I am trying to figure out is with DFW, Houston and San Antonio pretty much surrounding Austin, is how and why it attracted so much growth so rapidly, because it certainly is far from the cheapest place in Texas to live in. I guess I was expecting someplace like Waco, given that...even the roads they currently have were kind of a surprise to me. I use 183 and 45 Toll Roads fairly frequently. For 130, I believe 130 actually has a more convoluted history behind it than being a artery for Austin. I believe its initial conception was to bypass Austin, as well as Waco and Temple but was ceased due to political opposition from local farm owners.

One thing a bit different though in Austin than Atlanta however in the construction of their toll roads is, alot of that land was still vacant during the conception of those roads. 183 Toll goes through Cedar Park and Laender both of which are still establishing as suburbs so there was no development in the path of those 183. 45 goes through far North Austin (or far South) both of which are largely uninhabited. 183 also only recently saw development in its path. 290 there was development but it's still fairly rural, same goes for 71.

Also I am hoping they convert 290 to a full toll road between Austin and Houston. I can't understand how Texas of all places has no direct limited access road between Houston and Austin.

Austin was cheap until the last 20 years. Its a nice place. Also in the 80s there were two computer consortiums, SEMATECH and one other, that triggered a huge tech surge in Austin. The first part of 183 (the non-tolled part), they had to tear down a lot of stuff. 71 on the southside west of I-35 they wiped out a bunch of strip centers and some apartments. 290 wasn't surrounded by vacant land either.

It is definitely true that Atlanta needs alternate means to transportation however there is a chicken and the egg riddle. Who is really holding it back? The state or the populous? The state may very well be afraid of investing multi billion dollars worth of transit without the guarantee that the populous would be willing to use those methods.



Atlanta has Geographical barriers however they are nowhere near as extreme until you get about 50 miles north of Downtown. Atlanta's issue was more so nimbys and foresight than Geographical related matters.
I think leadership is lacking in Atlanta and Georgia.
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Old 02-14-2019, 07:09 PM
bu2
 
9,365 posts, read 6,005,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue View Post
I wasn't speaking of geographical barriers but city barriers. Cities can't continue building roads because there's city there. Most cities do not even attempt to "fix" congestion by continuing to build roads because it would destroy neighborhoods and create a landscape that's bleak.
There are limits, but Atlanta is nowhere close to it.
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Old 02-15-2019, 04:30 AM
 
5,880 posts, read 5,209,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Well admittedly Austin did kind of shock me moving there. I wasn't expecting it to be such a tech centre nor did I expect it to be as Californian as it is. What I am trying to figure out is with DFW, Houston and San Antonio pretty much surrounding Austin, is how and why it attracted so much growth so rapidly, because it certainly is far from the cheapest place in Texas to live in. I guess I was expecting someplace like Waco
What seems to have helped fuel much (if not most) of the growth in a city/metro like Austin is that it is the site of a small little neighborhood school (the nearly 52,000-student major research institution that is the flagship campus of the University of Texas system, which only has a $31 billion endowment ) and a legendary live music scene and unique bohemian culture (both of which have been fueled in very large part by the massive student population at UT).

Because of the city's very unique and interesting social and cultural characteristics, many students opt to stay in a city like Austin after graduating from a major research institution like UT (the University of Texas at Austin) A school which also attracts many technology, life sciences, health care businesses, start-ups, corporate and economic activity, etc., to a city like Austin because of UT's status as a major research institution.

Being home to the seat of government (the state capital) for what has often been the fastest-growing and what is now the second most-populous state in the union (Texas) probably has also helped to attract a many people to a city like Austin who either work in, want to work in, or want to be near the seat of government of what is such an important state in the union.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
It is definitely true that Atlanta needs alternate means to transportation however there is a chicken and the egg riddle. Who is really holding it back? The state or the populous? The state may very well be afraid of investing multi billion dollars worth of transit without the guarantee that the populous would be willing to use those methods.
It is a cultural aversion to transit that has kept the government of a state like Georgia from investing heavily in transit.

Many voters do not think that transit is a legitimate solution to transportation challenges in a part of the country like Georgia and the Southeastern U.S.

There has been and continues to be much suspicion of transit by many voters in a state like Georgia that transit is a form of social engineering that is designed by global elites to force a more cosmopolitan urban left-leaning way-of-life on an area like Georgia (including the Atlanta outer suburbs) that has traditionally been dominated by conservative libertarian way of life, socially, culturally and politically.

But on the other hand, many of those same voters that have been and continue to be extremely averse to the idea of expanding transit also often have been and continue to be extremely averse to the idea of expanding the arterial road network... Particularly when it comes to proposals for the construction of new superhighway-level arterial roads.

Which superhighways are a type of transportation infrastructure that many Georgians consider to be extremely destructive to both heavily developed urban/suburban/metro and exurban/rural environments in a part of the country that is very heavily emotionally, psychologically, culturally and socially influenced by its relatively close distance to a Blue Ridge Mountains region which many (including urban, suburban and exurban metro Atlantans; exurban and rural North Georgians, Southeasterners, and regional and national environmentalists) are extremely fiercely protective of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Need4Camaro View Post
Geographical Barriers are present in many cities but nowhere near to the decree of what is seen in places like Seattle, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, some parts of Los Angeles, Western Austin (see West Hills and the Colorado River) which are littered in Lakes, Sounds and Mountains well into their metro, making connecting communities difficult.

Atlanta has Geographical barriers however they are nowhere near as extreme until you get about 50 miles north of Downtown. Atlanta's issue was more so nimbys and foresight than Geographical related matters.
That is a very good point that any geographical barriers that may exist in the Atlanta area are seemingly nowhere near as pronounced as they may be in many other large major metro areas.

That is also a very good point that opposition from local residents (or "nimbys") seems to have been much more of an issue in blocking new and additional transportation infrastructure construction (particularly the construction of new superhighway-level arterial roads) than any geographical barriers that might exist in the Atlanta metro area/region.

But even though major geographical barriers (like large bodies of water and/or large mountain ranges, etc.) may not exist in an area that is immediately close to the core of the Atlanta city/metro, the geographical features that do exist (like most notably the presence of the heavily wooded vegetation and the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains region on the north side of the Atlanta metro region) have played a dominant, if not prevailing psychological factor in motivating public opposition to additional superhighway construction in and through much of the Atlanta region.

Like was the case when local, regional and national groups successfully and opposed the construction of the proposed Outer Perimeter and Northern Arc superhighway outer loop through the Atlanta outer suburbs and exurbs back in the late 1990's and early 2000's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
I think leadership is lacking in Atlanta and Georgia.
I would not say that leadership is lacking in Atlanta and Georgia on the transportation issue.

I would say that metro Atlanta's and Georgia's political leaders have had to adjust and reflect the positions on transportation that their constituents have often made abundantly clear, particularly on the issue of roadway expansion.

Metro Atlanta and North Georgia voters just do not seem to have much of an appetite for the type of large-scale road expansion that voters and residents may be significantly more accepting of in other major Sun Belt jurisdictions like Texas, Florida, California and North Carolina.

A major political figure like the late former Georgia Governor and U.S. Senator Zell Miller found out the complicated attitude that Georgia voters have towards road construction early on in his political career as a state legislator representing the people of his very rural house district in the North Georgia Mountains.

Miller tried early on to use road construction projects as favors to his rural legislative district to advance his career in Georgia politics, but found that most of the people in his deeply culturally conservative isolated very rural district either did not care and/or even were more favorable to keeping many local roads unpaved.

Otherwise, metro Atlanta and North Georgia voters will accept major transportation improvements... If said political leaders sell those needed and/or desired transportation improvements to voters in ways that are most digestible to a transit and superhighway-averse metro Atlanta and North Georgia voting public.
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:16 AM
bu2
 
9,365 posts, read 6,005,269 times
Reputation: 3820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll View Post
What seems to have helped fuel much (if not most) of the growth in a city/metro like Austin is that it is the site of a small little neighborhood school (the nearly 52,000-student major research institution that is the flagship campus of the University of Texas system, which only has a $31 billion endowment ) and a legendary live music scene and unique bohemian culture (both of which have been fueled in very large part by the massive student population at UT).

Because of the city's very unique and interesting social and cultural characteristics, many students opt to stay in a city like Austin after graduating from a major research institution like UT (the University of Texas at Austin) A school which also attracts many technology, life sciences, health care businesses, start-ups, corporate and economic activity, etc., to a city like Austin because of UT's status as a major research institution.

Being home to the seat of government (the state capital) for what has often been the fastest-growing and what is now the second most-populous state in the union (Texas) probably has also helped to attract a many people to a city like Austin who either work in, want to work in, or want to be near the seat of government of what is such an important state in the union.



It is a cultural aversion to transit that has kept the government of a state like Georgia from investing heavily in transit.

Many voters do not think that transit is a legitimate solution to transportation challenges in a part of the country like Georgia and the Southeastern U.S.

There has been and continues to be much suspicion of transit by many voters in a state like Georgia that transit is a form of social engineering that is designed by global elites to force a more cosmopolitan urban left-leaning way-of-life on an area like Georgia (including the Atlanta outer suburbs) that has traditionally been dominated by conservative libertarian way of life, socially, culturally and politically.

But on the other hand, many of those same voters that have been and continue to be extremely averse to the idea of expanding transit also often have been and continue to be extremely averse to the idea of expanding the arterial road network... Particularly when it comes to proposals for the construction of new superhighway-level arterial roads.

Which superhighways are a type of transportation infrastructure that many Georgians consider to be extremely destructive to both heavily developed urban/suburban/metro and exurban/rural environments in a part of the country that is very heavily emotionally, psychologically, culturally and socially influenced by its relatively close distance to a Blue Ridge Mountains region which many (including urban, suburban and exurban metro Atlantans; exurban and rural North Georgians, Southeasterners, and regional and national environmentalists) are extremely fiercely protective of.


That is a very good point that any geographical barriers that may exist in the Atlanta area are seemingly nowhere near as pronounced as they may be in many other large major metro areas.

That is also a very good point that opposition from local residents (or "nimbys") seems to have been much more of an issue in blocking new and additional transportation infrastructure construction (particularly the construction of new superhighway-level arterial roads) than any geographical barriers that might exist in the Atlanta metro area/region.

But even though major geographical barriers (like large bodies of water and/or large mountain ranges, etc.) may not exist in an area that is immediately close to the core of the Atlanta city/metro, the geographical features that do exist (like most notably the presence of the heavily wooded vegetation and the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains region on the north side of the Atlanta metro region) have played a dominant, if not prevailing psychological factor in motivating public opposition to additional superhighway construction in and through much of the Atlanta region.

Like was the case when local, regional and national groups successfully and opposed the construction of the proposed Outer Perimeter and Northern Arc superhighway outer loop through the Atlanta outer suburbs and exurbs back in the late 1990's and early 2000's.



I would not say that leadership is lacking in Atlanta and Georgia on the transportation issue.

I would say that metro Atlanta's and Georgia's political leaders have had to adjust and reflect the positions on transportation that their constituents have often made abundantly clear, particularly on the issue of roadway expansion.

Metro Atlanta and North Georgia voters just do not seem to have much of an appetite for the type of large-scale road expansion that voters and residents may be significantly more accepting of in other major Sun Belt jurisdictions like Texas, Florida, California and North Carolina.

A major political figure like the late former Georgia Governor and U.S. Senator Zell Miller found out the complicated attitude that Georgia voters have towards road construction early on in his political career as a state legislator representing the people of his very rural house district in the North Georgia Mountains.

Miller tried early on to use road construction projects as favors to his rural legislative district to advance his career in Georgia politics, but found that most of the people in his deeply culturally conservative isolated very rural district either did not care and/or even were more favorable to keeping many local roads unpaved.

Otherwise, metro Atlanta and North Georgia voters will accept major transportation improvements... If said political leaders sell those needed and/or desired transportation improvements to voters in ways that are most digestible to a transit and superhighway-averse metro Atlanta and North Georgia voting public.
Georgia basically did nothing for 2 decades on roads or transit while the population nearly doubled. That is a definition of lack of leadership. Leadership involves coming up with a plan of what you will do and how you will pay for it and selling it. Georgia's "leaders" played ostrich.

Leadership involves understanding the loudest voices are not typical and may have different opinions on the issues than the majority. An example is how MARTA immediately folded on the Clifton corridor when a handful of homeowners objected to using the rail ROW between Emory and Eastlake. Whether that was the best route is beside the point. The point is that they immediately gave up in the face of any opposition. You can't get anything useful done that some people won't like. There are people who will oppose any road project. There are people who will oppose any transit project.

Some of the sales tax referendums around the state DID pass. In Atlanta, they came up with the $s and then tried to figure out the plan. And the political bickering and childish temper tantrums by Mayor Reed and others destroyed confidence that the plan was a serious, thoughtful proposal. Georgia state and local government has been filled with graft and political favors.
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