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I would like to point out a flaw in using city limits for walkscore is Louisville city limits are 300 sq miles and Cleveland is 78. As much as Large city limits skew extensive properties (namely Population) small city limits skew intensive proporties like Density or walkscore by simply omitting outer more suburban neighborhoods.
Just note the much lower transit score for downtown Louisville compared to downtown Cleveland.
And Louisville has no rail transit service and apparently no bus rapid lines. Cleveland has 37 miles of rail transit lines, including direct service from the Cleveland Hopkins International Airport terminal to Tower City downtown, and to University Circle. It also has 3 bus rapid transit lines.
Also, Cleveland's RTA is a county-wide system serving an area of over 1,200 square miles. The rail lines and the bus rapid lines serve several suburbs in addition to Cleveland.
A true measure of how far Cleveland has fallen is that it is now being compared to Louisville KY and coming off looking defensive/sad.
Since when is it defensive/sad to correct falsehoods?
As someone who values Lake Erie, Greater Cleveland's highly rated park systems, and Cleveland's world-class art museum and orchestra, highly acclaimed theater district, and top-notch medical care, I would never consider living in Louisville. How about you?
Distilleries dominate the top attractions in Louisville as ranked by tourists, so obviously there are persons who love distillery tours, just as Cleveland draws cultural tourists interested in visiting its outstanding art museum and orchestra, its pro sports venues and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum.
I dunno. I mean, in Columbus all of the walkable areas are in a tight band running from OSU's campus down to German Village. Similarly, you could easily walk in Louisville from Downtown to NuLu to Bardstown Rd over the course of a day. Cinci is also compact. You could get into downtown and explore Over-The-Rhine on foot, then cross the bridges and check out Covington and Newport as a pedestrian.
In contrast, the walkable nodes in Cleveland are spread out. I've walked from Downtown to Ohio City before. I suppose you could walk to Tremont or Detroit-Shoreway as well. But if you want to visit the Eastside or suburban nodes, you have to drive or get on transit.
This "spread out" notion is a popular myth. Cleveland's 'nodes' as you call them, are becoming more and more connected. There's now Duck Island, which is growing --isn't there yet, but all sorts of new townhouses and fancy, ultra-mod hosing is going in this small neighborhood just east of Ohio City (on the other side of the Ohio City rapid transit station) and west of uber-hot Tremont so as to connect these 2 neighborhoods...
On top of this, downtown Cleveland is much stronger and more robust than Columbus' downtown to begin with. Columbus has nothing to compare with the Flats -- which is really downtown, or at worse, a downtown 'shoulder' neighborhood just down a steep hill from downtown. The Flats are also connected by rapid transit, but also the free downtown Trolley and its a fairly easy walk from downtown's core, too. ... and you can also walk from the Flats to Ohio City.
And as more and more old housing upgrades and infill apartment complexes are built (in Hingetown -- the little neighborhood that hinges between Ohio City and Detroit-Shoreway), such as the fancy new Church & State project rising currently, Ohio City, Detroit-Shoreway, Duck Island and Tremont are becoming one big connected neighborhood... and just west of there, there's Cudell (which I'll admit is currently a work-in-progress transitional neighborhood, but coming on strong in many parts) which is next door to hip-old-trendy-walkable Edgewater (in the City) and similar Lakewood (just across the city line)... along the lakefront (ah, I haven't been to Columbus' lakefront lately, ... have you?). More and more of this area, esp parts of Ohio City and Detroit-Shoreway, echo Chicago's Lincoln Park on a more intimate scale...
As for east of downtown, the CSU campus-town area, adjacent to buzzing Playhouse Square, is coming into its own, too, as Cleveland State U finally is growing a viable/interesting college town area of its own with its own developing street buzz along the Euclid corridor.
Yeah, OK, so Midtown isn't there yet and is more spread out, still partly blighted and not interesting; and you have to drive through it (or ride the rapid transit Columbus is only dreaming about) to get to University Circle and Little Italy, which are really hot now with growing walkable districts and the City's museum/cultural core (outside Playhouse Square and the Rock Hall and other, ah, cultural "nodes").
And then there's Shaker Square/Larchmere ... also walkable, vibrant, old/character-driven, hip, trendy, etc, etc... and right along the Blue and Green rapid transit lines, too.
But wait. Just the above areas described alone (and there's much more to Cleveland including the Heights and other adjacent areas) that simply dwarf what Columbus has -- Short North, the Ohio City area and German Village, -- all hip, cool, walkable, trendy areas... And no, I'm not buying your premise that Cleveland needs the Rapid to get to all these spread out nodes... Even without the Rapid, these Cleveland is still so much more viable and interesting than Columbus -- but having the Rapid (as well as a much more robust RTA bus network, including several BRT/BRT-lite routes), makes Cleveland that much better...
Louisville is a top tourist destination and is growing. Cleveland is not. It's that simple.
I couldn't find Louisville or Cleveland on any lists of top U.S. tourist destinations. Please post a link if you have other information.
This article says Louisville had 16.4 million annual visitors:
<<Louisville Tourism is among the city’s advocates pushing the boundaries to get these distinctions, but it takes a much larger team to support 16.4 million annual visitors >>
I mean, in Columbus all of the walkable areas are in a tight band running from OSU's campus down to German Village.
In contrast, the walkable nodes in Cleveland are spread out. I've walked from Downtown to Ohio City before. I suppose you could walk to Tremont or Detroit-Shoreway as well. But if you want to visit the Eastside or suburban nodes, you have to drive or get on transit.
I've spent months in German Village in the last decade. Few persons walk to or from German Village to Short North; it's 3 miles. I wonder if even tourists take the free CBUS between the two, as the CBUS doesn't provide very good service to German Village, with its route focused in the Brewery District.
By contrast, Cleveland's Flats East Bank, Warehouse District, Gateway District and Playhouse Square District (most distant at only 1 mile from Tower City) are all within easy walks of each other in Cleveland, and, collectively, offer superior entertainment and dining options. Additionally, all are connected by downtown Cleveland's free bus trolleys and the Healthline bus rapid. I use the trolleys several times a year to move between Playhouse Square and other downtown districts; for visitors unfamiliar with downtown Cleveland, the trolleys are an excellent way to orient themselves to downtown and the drivers are very helpful.
As mentioned repeatedly, Ohio City is five minutes from downtown on the Red Line as well as with several bus lines.
A 24/7 bus line connects downtown with Tremont. However, tourists could save a little time by taking the Red Line from Tower City and catching this bus at the W. 25th St. Red Line station.
One of the top attractions in Tremont is Sokolowski's University Inn, a legacy Polish-American cafeteria that is Cleveland's only James Beard America's Classics restaurant. It's a 0.6-mile walk down Abbey Ave. from the West 25th St. Red Line station. This route features the Abbey Ave. overlook with a "Cleveland" script sign.
Persons trying to argue that Cleveland isn't easily accessible to tourists need to use Google transit more often.
Even Clevelanders avail themselves of the city's above average mass transit system when visiting dining and entertainment districts. There seems to be a massive disconnect in this thread about the importance of mass transit in assessing a city's walkability. Some posters in this thread would apparently argue that NYC is too spread out and not walkable.
Persons living in mass transit challenged cities understandably don't appreciate how good mass transit options vastly improve walkability in a city.
I dunno. I mean, in Columbus all of the walkable areas are in a tight band running from OSU's campus down to German Village. Similarly, you could easily walk in Louisville from Downtown to NuLu to Bardstown Rd over the course of a day. Cinci is also compact. You could get into downtown and explore Over-The-Rhine on foot, then cross the bridges and check out Covington and Newport as a pedestrian.
In contrast, the walkable nodes in Cleveland are spread out. I've walked from Downtown to Ohio City before. I suppose you could walk to Tremont or Detroit-Shoreway as well. But if you want to visit the Eastside or suburban nodes, you have to drive or get on transit.
I'm going to agree about Cleveland's nodes not being as compact as other cities. That is one thing I notice when traveling. Part of that is out of the city's control. The Cuyahoga River cuts the city in half, obviously being a natural barrier. I'm sure somebody knows the exact years, but there was a time when the city of Cleveland never extended west of the Cuyahoga and neighborhoods such as Ohio City were separate municipalities. Then you had the Cuyahoga River being one of the industrial epicenters in the world, which created the massive industrial valley just south of downtown (I'm guessing it encompasses an area that is probably 10-15 square miles) that extends 5-6 miles along the Cuyahoga River, again creating another barrier. This one was kind of man made, but Cleveland never would've become one of the nation's largest cities if not for that industry. Then the interstates further cut neighborhoods in half. But that was hardly something only Cleveland experienced.
With that, I don't think having dozens of walkable commercial areas throughout the city is necessarily a bad thing and it does go back to how large Cleveland was at one point because pretty much every neighborhood on each sides of the river were connected via a main commercial corridor or a smaller commercial street (Clark, Fulton, Denison, Storer, Madison, Fleet, E. 71, E. 93, E. 116, etc).
Here's what I'm talking about as some of the side commercial streets:
Not only did the major corridors get disconnected due to blight and urban renewal, but the smaller commercial streets really took the brunt of it and fallen into third world looking areas. I was born and raised in Cleveland and definitely a Cleveland homer, though I recognize the issues the city faces, though I also see the renaissance that is taking place.
I will also argue that Cleveland is getting back there in terms of connectivity, especially in the booming areas along the lake on the westside (north of I-90). Twenty five years ago, Ohio City had its bones, but it was rough, so much so that St. Ignatius High School nearly fled to the suburbs out of fear for student safety (most of the students lived either in the burbs or West Park). But slowly it extended from W. 25th and Lorain out to W. 30th, then out to the W. 44 and now along Lorain it's starting to pick up all the way out to the W. 65th rapid station. West of there, though, it may take some time because that area, while it may not be the all out war zone it used to be, is still in rough shape. So, it may take some time to fully redevelop Lorain all the way to where they blasted I-90 through the neighborhood. I-90 will always be a barrier to fully integrating Lorain seamlessly, still on the other side of the highway is the Lorain Station commercial district, which is still mostly compact but seen it's better days. The bones, however, are there for it to be the next hot spot (much like what Ohio City was 25 years ago)
If Lorain Station can get redeveloped, the rest of Lorain through Jefferson and into Kamm's Corners is fairly urban, in solid shape and walkable. It may be another 25 years, but I could see Lorain (outside of where I-90 cuts it off) extending 8-9 miles of urbanity.
Then along Detroit, even 10 years ago, it was barren between W. 25th and W. 65th. Now, that area from Gordon Square (Detroit-Shoreway) redevelopment extending east and Ohio City redevelopment extending west, the two areas are already on on the verge of blending into each other once again. Then the redevelopment along Detroit is extending west of W. 65th into the W. 70s and is inching closer to to connecting with the West Boulevard-Cudell Rapid Station and then to the Edgewater neighborhood (W. 100s), where Detroit already blends seamlessly into and through the city of Lakewood and even into the city of Rocky River. I think this is much closer to happening than with Lorain, and within the next 10-15 years, you're going to have that entire 8-9 mile stretch of Detroit being pretty much connected.
The eastside is another story and I don't think you'll ever see downtown completely merge with uptown (University Circle/Little Italy) for a couple reasons. On the southern end between downtown and Fairfax (Cleveland Clinic) is what has to be one of the largest concentrated areas of public housing projects in the country. Pretty much everything south of Carnegie from E. 30th to E. 55th streets is block after block of projects (some rebuild and look decent but some like Outwaithe Homes are in deplorable condition). Then north of Carnegie to Euclid and then to Chester (midtown) the city has decided to make that a tech corridor, so it's never going to be residential, but it's going to serve a purpose. In a way, I wish Euclid could be Cleveland's version of High Street (Columbus) but I understand the rationale behind the plan. Plus, getting from downtown to uptown on Euclid is easy due to the Healthline BRT. Then from north of Superior to the lake out to E. 55th is nothing but light industrial, and that isn't going to change anytime soon. The only non-public housing between downtown and E. 55th is the small Asiatown town strip between Payne and Superior. But once you get into Hough (past E. 55) that is, IMO, too far north for it to form a connection to uptown.
Long story short, while I agree that Cleveland has more connection issues than some pro-Cleveland posters are arguing, it's not as bad as what you are trying to portray. The "upper west side" (Ohio City/Detroit-Shoreway/Cudell/Edgewater/Lakewood and even Rocky River ... and I'll throw Tremont in there, though I-71 and I-490 really did a great job of isolating that neighborhood, though Scranton Road is seeing development that is helping bridge Tremont and Ohio City under I-71) are getting close. There is the Cuyahoga River before you get into downtown, but both sides of the flats are also seeing residential development and there are walkable bridges (and the Red Line rail) that do connect those areas, so it's not as disconnected as one would think. The biggest problem is that all the cultural institutions Clevelanders brag about are in University Circle (uptown) and I don't see downtown/midtown/uptown every blending into one indistinguishable area. However, that is where the Red Line heavy rail line and the Healthline BRT come into play ... each are assets only found in major cities.
Last edited by ClevelandBrown; 03-29-2019 at 07:21 PM..
Bluegrass music and horse racing? Your jealousy of Louisville shines through in every post about it. Louisville is a top tourist destination and is growing. Cleveland is not. It's that simple. In fact, I can't think of a single place in Louisville that plays nightly bluegrass. Oh, and that little "horse racing thing?" KY derby and the 2 weeks before it are a massive festival that draws MILLIONS. Yes millions. There is nothing even remotely close in the state of Ohio. Thunder Over Louisville alone draws 750,000 people in good weather. Oh, and Downs After Dark is just as fun if not better than an Indians baseball game...Horse Racing and baseball are boring as heck, but at least a tourist in Louisville can GAMBLE at Churchill Downs and there are live DJs.
Louisville has FOUR music festivals that blow anything in CLE out of the water. Louisville has the 3rd rated art show in America in St James. Louisville is now a top destination for millenial travelers for festivals like Forecastle, Bourbon and Beyond, Lounder than Life, and the new Hometown Rising.
Louisville has one of the largest St Patrick's parades and a top 5 Zombie walk.
Cleveland has lots of great stuff too but Cleveland's desire to be "east coast urban" isn't fooling anyone. And outside downtown CLE which is nice nut NO nicer than downtown Louisville as of March 2019.
Louisville has nearly contiguous urban development and walkability for almost 6 miles from 9th and main along east market through Nulu and Butchertown and up Baxter and Bardstown Rd to nearly I-264. Columbus has a similar vibe from German Village on south High walking straight up north High all the way to campus. UofL's campus is half the size of OSU but UofL still has 25k students or so....a very virbant campus scene adjacent to the largest Victorian neighborhood in the USA. Louisville's theatre scene is just as robust as CLE...we may not have all the theatres as concentrated as Playhouse, but we have all the same Broadway shows and MULTIPLE live theatre venues all around downtown. Actors theatre and the Humana Festival of New American plays is WORLD RENOWNED and just as well known in theatre cricles as Playhouse. The expanded Speed museum isn't significantly inferior to any CLE museum...it still looks and feels like a mid sized city museum. People who want REAL museums are going to skip these listed cities all together and you know it. Like CLE, Louisville has several unique museums interesting to certain tourists.
And back to CLE...it is VERY hard to get to all these cool areas....getting from Little Italy to Ohio City using a car takes easily 30 mins. Using the train takes over an hour! You act like Cleveland's rapid citculates every 5 mins like a big city! Outside rush hour the Rapid is not user friendly and frankly SCARY to most normal tourists who'd never think to take it like they would a in a true east coast city that CLE dreams of being.
And, you are forgetting Louisville's ultimate Trump card...BOURBON. 8 distilleries opened in the last two years alone and the bourbon boom is insanely growing. Cleveland cannot match an authentic brand like Bourbon. It's a big deal even if you can't see it and is a large reason why Louisville has built 30 hotels in the last 3 years and many more coming.
Sorry, but with the exception of pro sports, CLE offers not much of anything that Louisville and Columbus don't...its why the latter two cities are growing and CLE is not.
I'm only going to respond to the "East Coast" part because I've never been to Louisville, though I'm sure I would have a great time, there are very few cities I've been to where that wasn't the case ... even some that I would consider meh.
As for the East Coast thing, I think it's a common misconception that people think when people from Cleveland say the city is more "East Coast" than Midwest, we are talking about row houses, brownstones and 20,000 people per square mile density. No, Cleveland doesn't have that, but culturally, yes, it does share more in common with NYC than it does with any Midwest city not named Chicago or Detroit (due to the heavy Polish/Slavic influence, which is also more of a Great Lakes thing, not Midwest).
But anyway, what group defines "East Coast" ... which is more of a broader term for "NYC"?
Italians, Puerto Ricans and Jewish.
Combined, the Cleveland's MSA population is about 18 to 20 percent of those groups. Plus, I'm also going to add that it looks like Dominicans ... another East Coast/NYC group ... seems to moving here (along with eastern Pennsylvania and Columbus), in Cleveland, filling in some of the traditional Puerto Rican enclaves as Puerto Ricans are starting to move south and southwest into places like Old Brooklyn, West Park and Parma.
So, It's more about the people here who define the culture.
Really, though, if you look at the ethnic breakdown of Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Buffalo, they are all basically the same (except Pittsburgh doesn't have Puerto Ricans or much of any Latino community). They are all in that area that kind of blends between East and Midwest ... It just happens that Buffalo is in New York and Pittsburgh is in Pennsylvania, so nobody really bats an eye if they say "east coast." Cleveland, though, being in Ohio has to be a Midwest city ... In reality, Cleveland and Northeast Ohio in general (yes, due to the Connecticut influence which I actually don't put too much stock into outside that it is easy to tell the older towns here were laid out in a Connecticut-like design) culturally have little in common with the rest of the state of Ohio (which is heavily German .. the overwhelming Midwest historical ethnic group).
Though, Cleveland is very Great Lakes when it comes to Eastern Europeans ... Polish, Slavic, Greek, etc. But so are Pittsburgh and Buffalo, which is why I think those three cities are actually should be considered a cultural region of their own ... not quite truly East Coast, but not Midwestern either.
Long story short, while I agree that Cleveland has more connection issues than some pro-Cleveland posters are arguing, it's not as bad as what you are trying to portray. The "upper west side" (Ohio City/Detroit-Shoreway/Cudell/Edgewater/Lakewood and even Rocky River ... and I'll throw Tremont in there, though I-71 and I-490 really did a great job of isolating that neighborhood, though Scranton Road is seeing development that is helping bridge Tremont and Ohio City under I-71) are getting close. There is the Cuyahoga River before you get into downtown, but both sides of the flats are also seeing residential development and there are walkable bridges (and the Red Line rail) that do connect those areas, so it's not as disconnected as one would think. The biggest problem is that all the cultural institutions Clevelanders brag about are in University Circle (uptown) and I don't see downtown/midtown/uptown every blending into one indistinguishable area. However, that is where the Red Line heavy rail line and the Healthline BRT come into play ... each are assets only found in major cities.
This thread isn't about general connectivity and urban renewal of all of Cleveland. It's about Cleveland's entertainment/dining districts and their inter-connectivity and walkability.
Do you disagree that the downtown entertainment/dining districts are easily walkable and provided with good mass transit service between the free bus trolleys, the Waterfront Line, and the Healthline bus rapid?
You admitted that University Circle/Uptown (and Little Italy) has good mass transit connections with downtown.
And, as discussed, strong bus lines connect Tremont and Gordon Square to downtown.
The Blue/Green lines provide access to Shaker Square/Larchmere and the Van Aken District (Blue Line).
I guess I don't disagree with anything you said, as long as you agree with the above points.
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