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Old 01-10-2014, 01:13 PM
 
3,570 posts, read 2,500,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
I know a couple of original beatniks who tell me otherwise. People definitely didn't view Beat culture back then the same way they view the ever-so-trendy "hipster" scene today. In the 50's, beatniks celebrated non-conformity and spontaneous creativity. Modern-day hipsters celebrate conformity and uniformity, and I don't see much creativity going on with these people. Most of them are too immersed in their iCultureā„¢ to create anything (except maybe new apps or video games. Woo-hoo).

In the 50's, the Beat scene was confined mainly to two cities; New York and San Francisco, and even then only in little pockets like Greenwich Village and North Beach. There was a tiny scene centered around Reed College in Portland, but the point is that it wasn't this nationwide trend like it is today with the neo-hipsters.



True, but it's a very watered-down and homogenized version of "Bohemian", when compared to Bohemian subcultures of the not-so-distant past.



Yes, the LOOK definitely is. Anybody can put on a costume. Actual culture is a whole different story.



If that's sarcasm, then I couldn't agree more.
Perhaps the expansion of Mass Media has increased the speed with which people adopt the look popularized by people who ARE creating culture. I think it is naive to suggest that young people (that is who we are generally referring to when we talk about hipsters) are not creating culture and engaging the arts. The Beat scene could not expand via Twitter and Facebook, or it may well have taken off the way the so-called hipster scene has. I think if you get to know some young people, you will find people engaging in the creative arts and challenging established ideas and attitudes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
I am old so I remember the original beatniks. But I was too young at the time to actually be one. We had our small share in Chicago's Old Town area. It was Chicago's version of Greenwich Village. These were not anything like today's hipsters. Hipsters, the real ones go as far back as the 20's but that's a different animal not the ones we are discussing here.

Anyway, the Beatniks of the fifties were the bohemians of the day. That is bohemians with a small "B" so as not to confuse them with the ethnic group from Eastern Europe. Your description of beatnik bohemian is apt. As a teen, my friends and I were kind of beatnik wannabes. We read Kerouac, Ginsberg and other beatnik icons. We played bongos and listened to beat music. Beatniks didn't have followers in droves because they were very cerebral and weren't so much interested in changing the world as living it in their own quiet way. They prided themselves as an "underground" movement. They were definitely a subculture and wanted to keep it that way.

Every generation has something of this type. But hipsters are a far cry from anything creative or artistic or anything of merit. At least the ones I see and I see plenty living in Portland. I sympathize with your assessment of Seattle hipsters. But pity us Portlanders. People watch that silly show "Portlandia" and believe it is a documentary rather than a satire. And those are people who live here as well as those who don't. Those who don't live here want to move here and be a part of the hipster crowd to look "cool" or in other words, look like everyone else who is doing the same thing.

I think one word for "bohemian" today is "sheeple" in places in which are touted as being bohemian but are simply magnets for those who want to play at being different but haven't a clue or imagination as to how to do it.
I think we've got a fair bit of rose-tinted nostalgia in this thread. The Beats didn't publish Naked Lunch, Howl, and On the Road because they wanted to remain a subculture. There was certainly an effort to publicly engage their ideas and approaches to art.

People move to Portland because it is cheap, fun, and easy to get around. I'm an Oregon native, and Portland has changed a lot in my lifetime with new young people moving in and finding their place--perhaps it is a good thing for Portland to have some new blood and ideas--stagnation wasn't so hot for the place before. If you are watching people from afar rather than engaging them, then you are probably not seeing the creative things they are doing and have a rather dim view of what is going on in your city.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobloblawslawblog View Post
Very well-stated and right on the money. I'm 49, so I was obviously FAR too young to be a beatnik, but just like you I read all the literature and related to it. I was a punk. As in punk rocker. Really I still am, though I've mellowed considerably since my teens and early 20's. The point is, the punk scene was the closest thing my generation had to what the beatniks were burning to, though it was a very different kind of scene obviously. Still, we were unfairly viewed and judged by society as total violent lunatics, which prior to the mid-80's couldn't have been further from the truth. Everyone I knew in the scene back then, for the most part, was heavily into beat literature. In the early days of punk, many of us were informed by that.

Punk was a very underground thing until the 90's. Most of us weren't out to change the world either. We just wanted to vent our disgust with it in the loudest and most cathartic possible way, and make the most of living in a society that was in the grips of decline and decay. The beatniks existed during a time of prosperity, but also a time of extreme conservative social repression and conformity. Their whole thing was about breaking free from all that repression and conformity, and living life to the max. In that sense, punks and beatniks were basically after the same goals, just in two different eras/social climates.



Hahaha! Yeah, Seattle and Portland seem to have caught the same hipster virus, only it's more pronounced in Portland I think. That show, though in some ways pretty accurate in it's satire, can't be helping matters much down there. Kind of like when the whole grunge thing happened here in the 90's. Seattle became a magnet for every kid with a flannel shirt in America for a while. I wasn't living here in the 90's, but I visited a couple of times and was overwhelmed by all the grunge kids everywhere, who all seemed to have recently moved here from somewhere else.



Spot-on.
See above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
To which community in Portland would you refer as bohemian? Just interested in your opinion.
N Mississippi Ave., Alberta, and much of the East side between Powell and 84.
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Old 01-10-2014, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,695 posts, read 28,305,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Perhaps the expansion of Mass Media has increased the speed with which people adopt the look popularized by people who ARE creating culture. I think it is naive to suggest that young people (that is who we are generally referring to when we talk about hipsters) are not creating culture and engaging the arts. The Beat scene could not expand via Twitter and Facebook, or it may well have taken off the way the so-called hipster scene has. I think if you get to know some young people, you will find people engaging in the creative arts and challenging established ideas and attitudes.



I think we've got a fair bit of rose-tinted nostalgia in this thread. The Beats didn't publish Naked Lunch, Howl, and On the Road because they wanted to remain a subculture. There was certainly an effort to publicly engage their ideas and approaches to art.

People move to Portland because it is cheap, fun, and easy to get around. I'm an Oregon native, and Portland has changed a lot in my lifetime with new young people moving in and finding their place--perhaps it is a good thing for Portland to have some new blood and ideas--stagnation wasn't so hot for the place before. If you are watching people from afar rather than engaging them, then you are probably not seeing the creative things they are doing and have a rather dim view of what is going on in your city.



See above



N Mississippi Ave., Alberta, and much of the East side between Powell and 84.
Beatniks wrote books as did any authors to express their thoughts and ideas and published them to survive. Whether or not their writings would meet a mass audience was more than likely not their goal. Writers have to write. Artists have to paint. Whoever takes up their works is not under their control.

The the true Beatniks were a gritty, down to earth lot. There were no rose colored glasses there. There was an underground of harsh living with drugs and some violence that was unknown at the time. Much of the culture was truly underground and was often linked with radical politics along with the more poetic, artistic side. A true Beatnik would have abhorred social media.

N Mississippi and Alberta in my opinion are not bohemian. But I guess it's just a matter of opinion. Are one of those your neighborhood? I am curious as to why you would call them bohemian.
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:36 PM
 
3,570 posts, read 2,500,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervah View Post
Beatniks wrote books as did any authors to express their thoughts and ideas and published them to survive. Whether or not their writings would meet a mass audience was more than likely not their goal. Writers have to write. Artists have to paint. Whoever takes up their works is not under their control.

The the true Beatniks were a gritty, down to earth lot. There were no rose colored glasses there. There was an underground of harsh living with drugs and some violence that was unknown at the time. Much of the culture was truly underground and was often linked with radical politics along with the more poetic, artistic side. A true Beatnik would have abhorred social media.

N Mississippi and Alberta in my opinion are not bohemian. But I guess it's just a matter of opinion. Are one of those your neighborhood? I am curious as to why you would call them bohemian.
I have long since decamped to San Francisco, but have friends in the PNW and visit from time to time. I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on the Beats.

Ginsberg was a Columbia-educated kid who took to a "bohemian" lifestyle (the drugs and and politics--though the politics were partly from his family) was connected to literary and publishing circles in the early stages of his career. I appreciate his work, but I don't tend to see a huge gap between his bohemianism and that of many young people today.

Burroughs came from money and elected a bohemian and literary lifestyle. His attempts to publish came not from a need to survive.

Kerouac, another Columbia grad (though with a more modest upbringing), enjoyed considerable success as an author. I think that interviews with Kerouac show a man who enjoyed his celebrity and status.

Ferlinghetti was a publisher himself, and was educated at elite institutions.

These people were interested in their careers--they were not rejectionists trying to isolate themselves from the world. They made great art and they sought to disseminate it and build lives out of it.

Regarding the topic of the thread, bohemian includes, but is not limited to making art. It also has to do with attitude and lifestyle (broadly speaking). Bohemian these days encompasses:

Farm-to-table
Locally sourced
Craft beer
Body art
Crafting
Alcohol
Casual relationships
Street art
Conceptual art
Coffee

and much, much more.
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Old 01-11-2014, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,695 posts, read 28,305,050 times
Reputation: 35861
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
I have long since decamped to San Francisco, but have friends in the PNW and visit from time to time. I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on the Beats.

Ginsberg was a Columbia-educated kid who took to a "bohemian" lifestyle (the drugs and and politics--though the politics were partly from his family) was connected to literary and publishing circles in the early stages of his career. I appreciate his work, but I don't tend to see a huge gap between his bohemianism and that of many young people today.

Burroughs came from money and elected a bohemian and literary lifestyle. His attempts to publish came not from a need to survive.

Kerouac, another Columbia grad (though with a more modest upbringing), enjoyed considerable success as an author. I think that interviews with Kerouac show a man who enjoyed his celebrity and status.

Ferlinghetti was a publisher himself, and was educated at elite institutions.

These people were interested in their careers--they were not rejectionists trying to isolate themselves from the world. They made great art and they sought to disseminate it and build lives out of it.

Regarding the topic of the thread, bohemian includes, but is not limited to making art. It also has to do with attitude and lifestyle (broadly speaking). Bohemian these days encompasses:

Farm-to-table
Locally sourced
Craft beer
Body art
Crafting
Alcohol
Casual relationships
Street art
Conceptual art
Coffee


and much, much more.
I am not disagreeing with your interpretation of those authors. They made their contributions and it is a matter of interpretation as to how they presented themselves. The fact that they attained notoriety did influence their behavior and presence in the public eye. But they were considered as a part of the Beatnik movement in their day. There is no doubting that. It's what I remember in those times.

Regarding your definition of bohemian, I disagree. That is more of a definition of "trendy" and is nothing like the bohemian life I recall of the 50's. But I suppose that can be open to interpretation as well. Those areas you mention are thought of today in Portland as rapidly considered becoming Yuppie which is the antithesis of bohemian. I doubt many if any Portlanders would consider this as bohemian.
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Old 01-11-2014, 01:42 AM
 
Location: Pacific NW
6,413 posts, read 12,085,628 times
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But a "bohemian" lifestyle dates much further back than the 50s.

I have to say, Minervah, as a Portlander, that I agree with TheCityTheBridge. What I see as a Bohemian lifestyle is one in which people are more concerned with pursuing whatever arts interest them than in chasing the almighty dollar and becoming upwardly mobile.

Certainly Portland has both of those, but I kind of think that just the name of "The Alberta Arts District" indicates it's Bohemian tendencies. And personally, I think the Bohemians outnumber the Yuppies. At least in central Portland.
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Old 01-11-2014, 02:03 AM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,695 posts, read 28,305,050 times
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Perhaps today's definition of bohemian differs from my perception but I think if terms of the era that goes back to the 50's and even before that time. Maybe today people consider things to be bohemian simply as an artistic lifestyle or any alternative one that happens to be in style. It doesn't really have anything to do with money and it isn't mainstream. So I guess everyone has their idea of what is bohemian.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Minneapolis (St. Louis Park)
5,993 posts, read 10,124,065 times
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I wonder how "bohemian" it is to argue about where the most bohemian city is......
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Old 01-11-2014, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Pacific NW
6,413 posts, read 12,085,628 times
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Who's claiming to be Bohemian?
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:06 AM
 
1 posts, read 1,356 times
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Someone mentioned Eureka Springs, Arkansas earlier, but I wanted to mention it again. This place is a bit of a magnet to any unique minded, independent, nonconformist who understands the illusions of capitalism and competition. I'm staying out of the definition of Bohemian
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:51 PM
 
3,070 posts, read 8,863,103 times
Reputation: 2092
bumpity bump. I just got a rep from a previous post and read the comments since then and think this is a convo worth continuing
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