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Actually at 3500+ density, Beech Grove is pretty urban, small bungalows, big A St. Francis right there in the middle. Shame they are closing it in favor of the south campus and the amtrak railyard is in Beech Grove. Southport is in Perry Township in which the northern part is dense since it's right on the border of the old city limits. The area just north of county line road has more of a suburban feel to it but the north end and middle where southport falls has a nice urban feel to it. Southport is small in and of itself but you hit stop 11 and madison heading north is a different story.
st louis has forest park and city garden, both far superior to anything in indianapolis in terms of urban gathering places. go look them up, they are both among the very best in class. and apparently you weren't kididng about comparing monument circle to piccadilly circus and times square. hee hee.
indianapolis is in a tier below st. louis.
uhmmm, not true, Forest park has a lot more visitors right now than White River State park but the age of the two is drastically different. WRSP on the west end of Downtown receives more and more visitors every year with the city really getting into sprucing up the area and reclaiming the natural splendor and will eventually overtake forest esp. with the addition of the cultural trail. Forest had 12 million visitors last year. WRSP + the canal had 6 mil and receives more and more visitors every year. Garfield park also takes away from wrsp as it is only a few minutes away on the near south side as well.
As far as urban gathering places, Indy does have a lot, the american legion mall which is 5 blocks long just north of the square, pan am plaza, of course the canal and wrsp, broad ripple, fountain square, brookside, the new urban art garden at IMA and so on and so forth.
Comparing the Arch to Monument circle is comparing apples to oranges. They have different purposes. The arch as I know it is the gateway to the west, meaning to continue west from that point. You stop, take pictures blah blah blah but you keep going. Monument circle is a gathering spot and was designed to be a gathering spot in the geographic middle of the city where people can meet, hang out and mingle. You are supposed to stop and hang for a while. Both are iconic structures, just serving different purposes. I would say one really isn't better than the other as if you were to flip their roles, neither would be IMO able to really sustain itself as an iconic structure based on the role it wasn't designed for.
There really isn't too many things like the circle of lights the day after thanksgiving in DT when they light up the monument, have hot cider (for sale of course) and just mingle even in the cold with the music and so on and so forth. Just a fun time, packed as all get out with people as you are literally shoulder to shoulder around the circle, up and down meridian and market street.
uhmmm, not true, Forest park has a lot more visitors right now than White River State park but the age of the two is drastically different. WRSP on the west end of Downtown receives more and more visitors every year with the city really getting into sprucing up the area and reclaiming the natural splendor and will eventually overtake forest esp. with the addition of the cultural trail. Forest had 12 million visitors last year. WRSP + the canal had 6 mil and receives more and more visitors every year. Garfield park also takes away from wrsp as it is only a few minutes away on the near south side as well.
As far as urban gathering places, Indy does have a lot, the american legion mall which is 5 blocks long just north of the square, pan am plaza, of course the canal and wrsp, broad ripple, fountain square, brookside, the new urban art garden at IMA and so on and so forth.
So.....as far as Forest Park goes, are you somehow inferring that Forest Park is going to lose visitors, and what, exactly, do you base that on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by msamhunter
Comparing the Arch to Monument circle is comparing apples to oranges. They have different purposes. The arch as I know it is the gateway to the west, meaning to continue west from that point. You stop, take pictures blah blah blah but you keep going. Monument circle is a gathering spot and was designed to be a gathering spot in the geographic middle of the city where people can meet, hang out and mingle. You are supposed to stop and hang for a while. Both are iconic structures, just serving different purposes. I would say one really isn't better than the other as if you were to flip their roles, neither would be IMO able to really sustain itself as an iconic structure based on the role it wasn't designed for.
There really isn't too many things like the circle of lights the day after thanksgiving in DT when they light up the monument, have hot cider (for sale of course) and just mingle even in the cold with the music and so on and so forth. Just a fun time, packed as all get out with people as you are literally shoulder to shoulder around the circle, up and down meridian and market street.
One can only suppose you havent heard of what is going on with the grounds of the Arch, which in case you didnt know, is a National Park.
According to this source, it gets about 3 million visitors per year, which, according to your post, if FP gets 12 million per year, I would daresay the source I quoted for Arch #s is on the low side.
The Arch / Jefferson National Expansion Memorial | Adventure-Crew.com (http://www.adventure-crew.com/2009/06/the-arch-jefferson-national-expansion-memorial/ - broken link)
So.....as far as Forest Park goes, are you somehow inferring that Forest Park is going to lose visitors, and what, exactly, do you base that on?
One can only suppose you havent heard of what is going on with the grounds of the Arch, which in case you didnt know, is a National Park.
According to this source, it gets about 3 million visitors per year.
The Arch / Jefferson National Expansion Memorial | Adventure-Crew.com (http://www.adventure-crew.com/2009/06/the-arch-jefferson-national-expansion-memorial/ - broken link)
No one said lose visitors, just wrsp will eventually receive more. Yes I know the arch sits in a national park but that still does not negate from its moniker as Gateway? Do I think the changes will help, yes some but one, for it to be anything like Monument Circle, you would have to put it in a different place, two, east. St. louis right across the river does kind of take away from the view looking east. There aren't any visitor number for Monument Circle, not including its regular foot traffic and going based off of visitors, as it is literally intertwined with everyday Indianapolis life but I would imagine a huge chuck of visitors to the city would stop at monument circle.
No one said lose visitors, just wrsp will eventually receive more. Yes I know the arch sits in a national park but that still does not negate from its moniker as Gateway? Do I think the changes will help, yes some but one, for it to be anything like Monument Circle, you would have to put it in a different place, two, east. St. louis right across the river does kind of take away from the view looking east. There aren't any visitor number for Monument Circle, not including its regular foot traffic and going based off of visitors, as it is literally intertwined with everyday Indianapolis life but I would imagine a huge chuck of visitors to the city would stop at monument circle.
I never said that the Arch sitting in a National Park detracts from its "moniker", whatever that remark means.
I do believe St Louisians will be very happy with the park when its done, there has been a lot of talk over quite a few websites, almost all of it has been positive, there is no need to move it, it just needs to be updated.
One of the huge positives about it, is it is 91 acres of green space in the middle of downtown, which Monument Circle, although lovely in its own right, is not.
As far as E STL, that does not belong to the State of Missouri, so there is not much MO can do about it, as its appearance is the least of its myriad problems.
One thing that won't change, St. Louis has a better natural setting than Indy. It's on the edge of the Ozarks. There are a lot of beautiful places right outside the city. Much of St. Louis County is very hilly and even rugged in some areas with lots of trees. These areas are only 10-20 minutes outside of the city...
One thing that won't change, St. Louis has a better natural setting than Indy. It's on the edge of the Ozarks. There are a lot of beautiful places right outside the city. Much of St. Louis County is very hilly and even rugged in some areas with lots of trees. These areas are only 10-20 minutes outside of the city...
And it gets even better further out. Western St. Louis County has some beautiful suburbs
Yes, Indianapolis isn't very hilly or hilly at all, highest elevation is at Crown Hill cemetary. Coming from an area with large sand dunes, it was one of the downers for the circle city. This is prairie land and does have a certain beauty of it's own with acres and acres of fresh wild flowers. Indianapolis Museum of Art comes to mind that just shows the natural beauty of the area
Actually at 3500+ density, Beech Grove is pretty urban, small bungalows, big A St. Francis right there in the middle. Shame they are closing it in favor of the south campus and the amtrak railyard is in Beech Grove. Southport is in Perry Township in which the northern part is dense since it's right on the border of the old city limits. The area just north of county line road has more of a suburban feel to it but the north end and middle where southport falls has a nice urban feel to it. Southport is small in and of itself but you hit stop 11 and madison heading north is a different story.
The northern edge of Southport is in effect Southport Road between McFarland Road and Madison Ave. I guess if those two blocks by Southport antique mall is what you are hanging your hat on, then so be it. To seriously compare Southport's "urbanity" to University City, MO is an absolute and complete joke. The northern boundary of Perry Township does not belong to Southport, and is irrelevant to this discusion, unless we are just fudging things to make a point, then fudge away.
You tout Beech Grove's density as being 3500. That is just a bit short of the 6300 that U City comes in at. U City is far more dense than any of the "suburbs" in Marion County. It is also a lot more interesting.
I never said that the Arch sitting in a National Park detracts from its "moniker", whatever that remark means.
I do believe St Louisians will be very happy with the park when its done, there has been a lot of talk over quite a few websites, almost all of it has been positive, there is no need to move it, it just needs to be updated.
One of the huge positives about it, is it is 91 acres of green space in the middle of downtown, which Monument Circle, although lovely in its own right, is not.
As far as E STL, that does not belong to the State of Missouri, so there is not much MO can do about it, as its appearance is the least of its myriad problems.
Monument Circle isn't 91 acres, but WRSP is 250 acres downtown. The circle is like your favorite watering hole you meet your friends at after work to wind down accept a lot of people meet there during work as well. No one said St. Louis residents wouldn't like the updates, I'm just saying it still will not serve the same purpose of Monument Circle and Monument Circle will never serve the same purpose as the arch. Both are grand in their own right esp. what they were designed for. As far as ESL well it would be beneficial for them and the state of Illinois to do something about it as it serves the entire STL metro that just happens to be in plain site of its downtown. Chicago has that same issue with NWI, in particular Gary. A city with a lot of issues and massive urban blight with what was once some splendid architecture. They are trying though and that's really all you can do when you have a massive uphill battle. But even Gary, thinks regionally and not on a state level since Indiana doesn't like them anyway and their association is Chicago way more than Indiana. It's the same for ESL, it has way more in common with STL than it ever will with Illinois.
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