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Old 10-27-2008, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
5,361 posts, read 7,052,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
I've based my message on discussions I've had with black people from the south that relocated to Connecticut and other northern regions such as Minnesota and Wisconsin. In the Northeast, if someone is racist they will not vocalize it unless they are in private company where it is not likely their views will be heard or seen by many.

Cleveland is Midwestern and it does not surprise me at the overtness being displayed. I've seen the same thing here in Kansas City too.
Cleveland is not Midwestern.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:20 AM
 
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Cleveland is most definitely a Midwestern city just as Ohio is a Midwestern state.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:23 AM
 
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Interesting thread topic...

I was born in 1958, in Texas, and thus, grew up on the "tail end" of Jim Crow laws in the South. That is, a time things were changing, but still a lot of tension. I attended segregated schools (until I got to high school) and blacks and whites pretty much maintained their own seperate areas of town, schools, and busineses. And while I know I might catch hell over this, I still maintain there is nothing wrong with voluntary segregation.

Anyway, as to the larger question? I will always argue that the major difference in de jure segregation in the South and de facto segregation in the North is that the former were simply less hypocritical about it all.

There was a PBS documentary series (which many of y'all may have seen) called "Eye on the Prize." The first three episodes covered the Civil Rights Movement in the South. The second part, covered it in the North. And it was in the latter that leaders such as Andrew Young said that, in effect, he was never so afraid for his safety as when the "movement" entered the North. And, I remember once reading that Dr. King once said something like "If you want to teach a white Southerner how to hate, just send him to Chicago."

I know too that, according to certain Gallup Polls in the past, it is Southerners (black and white, and defined as the 11 Old Confederate States plus Oklahoma and Kentucky) who express the most hopefullness and optomism on race relations.

Coming the full circle though, this is a good question without an easy consise answer. Perhaps race relations in the South vis a vis the North and West are just "different."
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:26 AM
 
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Good points TX Reb. In New England it is rather difficult to see racism, let alone hear about it because people are by nature, more reserved than in most other regions of the country. Since everyone ignores one another you can't really tell right off the bat and in some cases, for many years. :-) It certainly exists there of course but it is less visible than in most other regions.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
Cleveland is most definitely a Midwestern city just as Ohio is a Midwestern state.
It is borderline Midwest at best.
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:09 AM
 
44,567 posts, read 43,103,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Interesting thread topic...

I was born in 1958, in Texas, and thus, grew up on the "tail end" of Jim Crow laws in the South. That is, a time things were changing, but still a lot of tension. I attended segregated schools (until I got to high school) and blacks and whites pretty much maintained their own seperate areas of town, schools, and busineses. And while I know I might catch hell over this, I still maintain there is nothing wrong with voluntary segregation.

Anyway, as to the larger question? I will always argue that the major difference in de jure segregation in the South and de facto segregation in the North is that the former were simply less hypocritical about it all.

There was a PBS documentary series (which many of y'all may have seen) called "Eye on the Prize." The first three episodes covered the Civil Rights Movement in the South. The second part, covered it in the North. And it was in the latter that leaders such as Andrew Young said that, in effect, he was never so afraid for his safety as when the "movement" entered the North. And, I remember once reading that Dr. King once said something like "If you want to teach a white Southerner how to hate, just send him to Chicago."

I know too that, according to certain Gallup Polls in the past, it is Southerners (black and white, and defined as the 11 Old Confederate States plus Oklahoma and Kentucky) who express the most hopefullness and optomism on race relations.

Coming the full circle though, this is a good question without an easy consise answer. Perhaps race relations in the South vis a vis the North and West are just "different."
I will be honest and disagree with this respectifully. I don't like any kind of segregation whether it be voluntary or involuntary. I feel that it seeks to exclude people out of the facets of life that one wants to be in. As I say that, I know that alot people want to be around their own kind. Personally, I grew up differently. I went through adolescence between the mid to late 1990's to the 2000's(I'm 22 now).

It is interesting that you mentioned Texas. Speaking as someone who lives in the South myself, I have a different view on race relations. I know this article is old, but it might be interesting to see something about race relations:East Texas racism subtle but persistent | Jasper - The Reaction | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/jasper/reaction/226896.html - broken link)

I have been told that in the South, there has always been a "know your place" mentality. This is what I have been told before. In some cases I see it, especially going into the smaller towns.

I guess I'm kind of cynical when I hear about the South being claimed as having better race relations because I live in the South and have seen different things. It varies alot too. I lived in Marietta,GA for a while and I never racial tensions in the air. One kid did call me the "n" word and he was beaten up for it. Other than that, it felt more accepting and it was more diverse. I moved to Paulding County and stayed for a few years. I felt like I had taken a trip back to the Old South. I saw some racial tensions out there, more than I could remember anywhere else. I did live in Texas for a few years(FT. Worth). My father did fine there. I took a visit back to Texas and went to Dallas this time. It felt more open. So it does vary.

It is also interesting that you metion Dr. King and the hate he saw in the North. I personally think that both regions were bad. The South and the North were slow to change. Changing the law is hard. Changing the practices are harder. That is one difference. In the South, if you were black and you participated in the Civil Rights movement, your job and livelihood was at stake. Rosa Parks was fired from her job because of the bus boycott. That is why she spent her last days in Detroit. In the North, it wasn't that. If you participated, yes you met problems from the local population. One thing I heard of the march in Chicago was that some of the people were marching and found that some of the sam people they worked with or new were throwing pop bottles(glass ones at that), bricks, and even small explosives at the marchers. The hatred was more hidden, until something happened. In the South the hatred was upfront. You knew where people stood and they let you know it to. You had the violence in Chicago. You had the violence in Birmingham. You had violence in Mississippi. It was everywhere.
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiam View Post
It is borderline Midwest at best.
Which region do you "think" Cleveland and the State of Ohio belongs?
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Phoenix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
Which region do you "think" Cleveland and the State of Ohio belongs?
If I "had" a choice, I'd call it perhaps Mid-East (Same with Pittsburgh). I just don't see these cities as Midwest or Northeast.
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Old 10-27-2008, 02:41 PM
 
10,167 posts, read 16,642,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I will be honest and disagree with this respectifully. I don't like any kind of segregation whether it be voluntary or involuntary. I feel that it seeks to exclude people out of the facets of life that one wants to be in. As I say that, I know that alot people want to be around their own kind. Personally, I grew up differently. I went through adolescence between the mid to late 1990's to the 2000's(I'm 22 now).
Thanks in turn for your own civil and articulate reply, PL. (even though I know we disagree vehemently on the Confederate Flag issue! LOL).

Anyway, perhaps it is an "age difference" (me at 50, you in your early twenties...yet both being native Southeners) that makes us disagree over the issue of voluntary segregation. I will always believe the reason that many racial tensions were created was because the federal government attempted to coerce something that people (North or South) were just not ready for. Right or wrong, neither region was. And forced busing was the worst of all...

But back to the point though? For some reason there seems to be just "accepted" that "forced integration" is just a naturally good thing. No one ever seems to truly examine the underlying premises of just why such is either true/false.

What is wrong with voluntary segregation? What if (and I know a few, one is a good friend of mine) a black owned business only wants to hire other blacks and cater to the same? Is there anything intrinsically wrong with that? It is not up to you or me, or Uncle Joe, much less a federal judge, to mandate otherwise...

Quote:
It is interesting that you mentioned Texas. Speaking as someone who lives in the South myself, I have a different view on race relations. I know this article is old, but it might be interesting to see something about race relations:East Texas racism subtle but persistent | Jasper - The Reaction | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/jasper/reaction/226896.html - broken link)
But read this one too...so we can be fair about it all.

FrontPage Magazine

Quote:
I guess I'm kind of cynical when I hear about the South being claimed as having better race relations because I live in the South and have seen different things. It varies alot too. I lived in Marietta,GA for a while and I never racial tensions in the air. One kid did call me the "n" word and he was beaten up for it. Other than that, it felt more accepting and it was more diverse. I moved to Paulding County and stayed for a few years. I felt like I had taken a trip back to the Old South. I saw some racial tensions out there, more than I could remember anywhere else. I did live in Texas for a few years(FT. Worth). My father did fine there. I took a visit back to Texas and went to Dallas this time. It felt more open. So it does vary.
Although I am fond (if that is the right term) of quoting statistics, I really base most of my heart-felt opinions on experience and lifetime observations. For instance, my first "real job" was at a "bait and beer house" when I was 14 years old (typical Texas, dont ya know! LOL)...and there were lots of lazy summer days when catfishermen, black and white, would gather outside the place and drink beer and just talk. As a kid, I LOVED to listen in on that adult conversation (knowing better than to interupt!). These men shared fishing and hunting secrets, how to best fry fish, the virtues of stink bait, all that good stuff..and more. In a way that it almost impossible to translate to a northerner. It was black and white Dixie folk sitting together...even if both went back home to their own different parts of town later...

I guess that is somewhat of an example of what I mean by that Southern whites and blacks share a bond that is much stronger than either of them share with their northern counterparts. I can't really explain it. But I know it is real, because I lived it first hand.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:09 PM
 
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I think segregation depended on your school. My dad said they didn't have a lot of problems but that was because they had few black students in their area coming to his school.

On the other hand, I had a teacher who told us that it got pretty bad at her school when things were integrated but that was also a case of more black students coming in.
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