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Old 03-14-2009, 02:04 PM
 
6,343 posts, read 8,487,860 times
Reputation: 3440

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I grew up in Elizabeth NJ, not exactly "the burbs" and not exactly the boonies either. It's a twenty minute train ride to NYC. I remember how much fun NYC used to be, even though I was young and only caught the tail end of it.

St. Marks Street... that was the place! All the goth and punk shops and the freaks who frequent them (like me)

The clubs...the Bank, the Milk Bar, the Limelight, CBGB, The Raven Cafe, Blackout Books, all the poetry slams....those were the days! It was a great time to be in the city...now?

Unless you are a well-dressed wealthy yuppie, NYC is not for you. No live music shows, no punk scene, no goth scene, no artistic/bohemian scene, no more independent anything. It went from Thud! to Dud! in a short period of time. Why? In a word: Guilliani

Yes, the man who "cleaned up NYC" also cleaned out it's local character. Don't get me wrong, I like that there is less crime and all, but what the heck did shutting down so many great music venues have to do with stopping crime? What ohh what did stores like Religious Sex have to do with people dealing drugs? NOTHING!

I remember when they passed that ridiculous "cabaret" license law, which said that any venue or bar that allowed the customers (repeat, THE CUSTOMERS) to dance and did not have a permit would be shut down, and in one month a third of all the bars in NYC were shut down. Come on, what is so bad about having a little bar that people can dance and listen to music at?

I am not talking about the peep shows, I am not talking about the drug dealers, I am talking about the harmless club nights and music venues, 99% of which were shut down during the reign of Generalismo Guilliani.

And what replaced those beutiful institutions and the people who frequented them?...


I don't know what came first, the show or the New New Yorkers, but that sums it up. No more Joey Romanoes or Robert Smiths, just Carries and Samanathas. No more punks and beatniks, now just Fashion Victims and Yuppies. It's the same all around the city.

Going out in NYC in my day used to be about discovering a new local band at a little venue or seeing a local arists, now, it's about wearing the "it" outfit while drinking the "it" cocktail (which no doubt cost $40 a glass) going to the "it" club and listening to the "it" song (no doubt by the likes of Beyonce) while all the while being so full of "It"!

I understand that things do change from time to time, but the same theme usually remains. I mean, the Hippied replaced the Beatniks, the Punks replaced the Hippies, the Goths replaced the Punks...and the Goths got replaced (thanks to Guilianni and the New New Yorkers) by a "closed" sign on the bar door and a banner that reads "coming soon: Channel Boutique".

If you're a yuppie who's idea of "fun" is going out to be seen and doing and not actually having fun (having fun went out of style ten years ago...) than NYC is the place for you. If you are like me, and like a city that feels alive and unique, than stay clear of NYC and stick to Austin, Salt Lake City, Seattle or Portland.

Ohh, and spare me, SPARE ME any mention of the "Williamsburg hipsters". Williamsburg has two bars that occasional have a Emo cover band and a Williamsburg "artist" is a graphic designer for the GAP who think's he's being "edgy" by wearing white after Labor Day!

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 03-14-2009 at 02:05 PM.. Reason: No discussion of Mod activity

 
Old 03-14-2009, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
317 posts, read 1,019,660 times
Reputation: 104
That stuff you lament the loss of is still around, but I guess you would rather complain than go out and try to find it.

It's smaller, and there are a lot fewer places where it thrives, but I assure you that there are still people who are still working to keep the independent music scene alive. If you want it big and obvious and handed to you like it used to be, well, that's gone. But what we want, we must create.

And come on, Joey Romano? St. Mark's Street? I'll assume those are typos.
 
Old 03-14-2009, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
8,389 posts, read 19,636,575 times
Reputation: 6215
I really don't think it's NY that has changed that much in this respect.... it's probably you that has changed.

Just the idea that you could nominate Austin,Salt Lake,Seattle and Portland of all cities shows just how much your outlook must have changed.

I was a hippy in the late 60's and early 70's so I felt about goths and freaks what you feel about today's hipsters.That it was an unoriginal pseudo counter culture. The goths and freaks were not the original or the most exciting counter culture in NY or even on St Marks.There were plenty before and there are plenty to come.

Please,adjust to the aging process and move on. Life will be better if you are less bitter about the changes going on around you .Be a little less judgmental and try to understand what is going on with young people as you age.... you will age more gracefully.
 
Old 03-14-2009, 04:42 PM
 
Location: New York
2,005 posts, read 4,274,376 times
Reputation: 1989
Things change, that is how it goes. After Rome ceded power to Constantinople it was a malarial backwater for centuries with little population and no power. If the great Rome could fall so can New York. Now that debt producing rackets are dead New York's time is limited as a notable anything.
 
Old 03-14-2009, 04:54 PM
 
1,437 posts, read 2,698,171 times
Reputation: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I grew up in Elizabeth NJ, not exactly "the burbs" and not exactly the boonies either. It's a twenty minute train ride to NYC. I remember how much fun NYC used to be, even though I was young and only caught the tail end of it.

St. Marks Street... that was the place! All the goth and punk shops and the freaks who frequent them (like me)

The clubs...the Bank, the Milk Bar, the Limelight, CBGB, The Raven Cafe, Blackout Books, all the poetry slams....those were the days! It was a great time to be in the city...now?

Unless you are a well-dressed wealthy yuppie, NYC is not for you. No live music shows, no punk scene, no goth scene, no artistic/bohemian scene, no more independent anything. It went from Thud! to Dud! in a short period of time. Why? In a word: Guilliani

Yes, the man who "cleaned up NYC" also cleaned out it's local character. Don't get me wrong, I like that there is less crime and all, but what the heck did shutting down so many great music venues have to do with stopping crime? What ohh what did stores like Religious Sex have to do with people dealing drugs? NOTHING!

I remember when they passed that ridiculous "cabaret" license law, which said that any venue or bar that allowed the customers (repeat, THE CUSTOMERS) to dance and did not have a permit would be shut down, and in one month a third of all the bars in NYC were shut down. Come on, what is so bad about having a little bar that people can dance and listen to music at?

I am not talking about the peep shows, I am not talking about the drug dealers, I am talking about the harmless club nights and music venues, 99% of which were shut down during the reign of Generalismo Guilliani.

And what replaced those beutiful institutions and the people who frequented them?...


I don't know what came first, the show or the New New Yorkers, but that sums it up. No more Joey Romanoes or Robert Smiths, just Carries and Samanathas. No more punks and beatniks, now just Fashion Victims and Yuppies. It's the same all around the city.

Going out in NYC in my day used to be about discovering a new local band at a little venue or seeing a local arists, now, it's about wearing the "it" outfit while drinking the "it" cocktail (which no doubt cost $40 a glass) going to the "it" club and listening to the "it" song (no doubt by the likes of Beyonce) while all the while being so full of "It"!

I understand that things do change from time to time, but the same theme usually remains. I mean, the Hippied replaced the Beatniks, the Punks replaced the Hippies, the Goths replaced the Punks...and the Goths got replaced (thanks to Guilianni and the New New Yorkers) by a "closed" sign on the bar door and a banner that reads "coming soon: Channel Boutique".

If you're a yuppie who's idea of "fun" is going out to be seen and doing and not actually having fun (having fun went out of style ten years ago...) than NYC is the place for you. If you are like me, and like a city that feels alive and unique, than stay clear of NYC and stick to Austin, Salt Lake City, Seattle or Portland.

Ohh, and spare me, SPARE ME any mention of the "Williamsburg hipsters". Williamsburg has two bars that occasional have a Emo cover band and a Williamsburg "artist" is a graphic designer for the GAP who think's he's being "edgy" by wearing white after Labor Day!
Salt Lake City?... I know the other cities you listed have a "great" music scene. Even if Salt Lake City does, it's still Salt Lake City! The Mormans and drinking laws there, are enough for most people to not want to live there.
 
Old 03-14-2009, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,057 posts, read 29,727,451 times
Reputation: 10450
Also, he spells his name "Giuliani."
 
Old 03-14-2009, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC & New York
10,755 posts, read 25,542,103 times
Reputation: 6681
Didn't we have this same thread not terribly long ago and it was moved over to Politics & Other Controversies?

And, it's Chanel, if you are referring to the French haute couturier taking over bar space.

While I do not deny places shut down, many of them were shut down because they ran afoul of community groups. They routinely violated noise ordinances, created public menace with drunk patrons, even litter was a problem with many places. These places had been in marginal areas, but the marginal areas turned around and community groups got stronger, such that they had more political pressure and demanded action to continue to provide for a better quality of life in keeping with the residential character of the area that was reemerging during the time period when many clubs came under fire.

Even CBGB's was shut down because of disputes with the Bowery Residents Committee, NOT because of a capricious action by the then mayor of NYC. I believe it was owing to a rent increase that was denied and not paid, and then an agreement as to a stay to secure a status for the club, but the plans never got ironed out and the club was forced to close. That's a business reason, completely unrelated to the assertion that the mayor was responsible for the issue.

Another reason why others closed was the rent, because a John Varvatos, Chanel, Prada, Dior, Barney's, the LVMH family of stores, etc. will pay more for the space than the club did. Many clubs were operated on thin margins for starters and they could not absorb a large rent increase or an outright lease buyout. Again, that's a business reason as the prices of leases escalated, many clubs could not keep pace with the renewals. Just recently, the Virgin Megastore at Times Square was shut down to gain control of the real esate, which is something that has had numerous boom-bust cycles since the earliest Dutch days of the island.

It's easy to sit back and look at the surface and decry NYC as a bastion of cultural decay insofar as the independent scene is concerned, but if you look beyond the surface, you can find many innovative and independent genres still in place in the city. NYC is a dynamic place and it's ever-changing and reinventing itself, so it's a little naive to expect that things will be frozen in time in perpetuity.
 
Old 03-14-2009, 11:25 PM
 
6,343 posts, read 8,487,860 times
Reputation: 3440
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog2 View Post
I really don't think it's NY that has changed that much in this respect.... it's probably you that has changed.

Just the idea that you could nominate Austin,Salt Lake,Seattle and Portland of all cities shows just how much your outlook must have changed.
I have been to all those cities except Seattle and Portland. NYC cannot hold a candle to Austin or SLC.
Quote:
I was a hippy in the late 60's and early 70's so I felt about goths and freaks what you feel about today's hipsters.That it was an unoriginal pseudo counter culture. The goths and freaks were not the original or the most exciting counter culture in NY or even on St Marks.There were plenty before and there are plenty to come.
You misunderstand what I said. I don't have anything against "hipsters", only that they don't really exist in NYC. I mean, some artsy kid with a hemp hat on and a band? A hipsters, and it's cool....a graphic designer for the GAP that wears only designer clothes? A yuppie. I don't mind hipsters, it's just that they don't really exist in NYC, nor does any sub/counter culture.

Quote:
Please,adjust to the aging process and move on. Life will be better if you are less bitter about the changes going on around you .Be a little less judgmental and try to understand what is going on with young people as you age.... you will age more gracefully.
What I can't understand is why young people in NYC have no culture what so ever. Like I said, Hippies replaced Beatniks, Punks replaced Hippies, goths replaced Punks and, in NYC, all of those things got replaced by a bunch of yuppies doing their best Sex and the City impersonation while listening only to the latest state approved hits.

I have nothing against the Indie rock crowd, my only gripe is that no such crowd exist in NYC.
 
Old 03-14-2009, 11:27 PM
 
6,343 posts, read 8,487,860 times
Reputation: 3440
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsteelerfan View Post
Salt Lake City?... I know the other cities you listed have a "great" music scene. Even if Salt Lake City does, it's still Salt Lake City! The Mormans and drinking laws there, are enough for most people to not want to live there.

You have obviously never been to SLC. The Mormons have no sway there and there is still drinking allowed and the city is, politically, just slightly to the left of NYC. It's the rest of Utah that's in a "red state" mindset.

Last edited by victorianpunk; 03-14-2009 at 11:39 PM.. Reason: Offensive
 
Old 03-14-2009, 11:38 PM
 
6,343 posts, read 8,487,860 times
Reputation: 3440
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwguydc View Post
While I do not deny places shut down, many of them were shut down because they ran afoul of community groups. They routinely violated noise ordinances, created public menace with drunk patrons, even litter was a problem with many places.
Ohh yes, goths getting drunk and starting fights... No, most of those places were in the middle of the city where no one lived and it was noisy anyway.

Quote:
These places had been in marginal areas, but the marginal areas turned around and community groups got stronger, such that they had more political pressure and demanded action to continue to provide for a better quality of life in keeping with the residential character of the area that was reemerging during the time period when many clubs came under fire.
And what about those people in the community who wanted a club? What, were they chop-liver? What about the bohemian character of the area? Does that not fit the bill of deserving being saved?

I hate when people say "think about the people and the community" blah blah blah...well, the answer is: so the kids who live in the area and happen to wear all black and spiked collars aren't people? So the folks who run and go to the club are not a community in their own right? What, they don't deserve a space of their own if they pay for it?

Quote:
Even CBGB's was shut down because of disputes with the Bowery Residents Committee, NOT because of a capricious action by the then mayor of NYC. I believe it was owing to a rent increase that was denied and not paid, and then an agreement as to a stay to secure a status for the club, but the plans never got ironed out and the club was forced to close. That's a business reason, completely unrelated to the assertion that the mayor was responsible for the issue.
CBGB closed because the rent was increased and because that crowd had long left NYC for greener pastures.

Quote:
Another reason why others closed was the rent, because a John Varvatos, Chanel, Prada, Dior, Barney's, the LVMH family of stores, etc. will pay more for the space than the club did. Many clubs were operated on thin margins for starters and they could not absorb a large rent increase or an outright lease buyout. Again, that's a business reason as the prices of leases escalated, many clubs could not keep pace with the renewals. Just recently, the Virgin Megastore at Times Square was shut down to gain control of the real esate, which is something that has had numerous boom-bust cycles since the earliest Dutch days of the island.
That doesn't explain why so many places in the middle of nowhere Queens were shut down by Der Furher Guilliani.

Quote:
It's easy to sit back and look at the surface and decry NYC as a bastion of cultural decay insofar as the independent scene is concerned, but if you look beyond the surface, you can find many innovative and independent genres still in place in the city. NYC is a dynamic place and it's ever-changing and reinventing itself, so it's a little naive to expect that things will be frozen in time in perpetuity.
I have been all around the city, and the closest thing to an "independent scene" that exist there is a $30 a glass cosmo bar with a slightly lax dress code (as in it is possible to get in wearing sneakers)

Like I said, I understand things change, but that is not what I am talking about. I thought that there would always be some kind of vibrant music and counter culture scene in NYC of some form or another, but all that has change. Now it's a graveyard for culture and a all around boring city.
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