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Phoenix of the 1920's-1960's was extremely urban and dense. With downtown crowded, "over-run" with pedestrian traffic, and highly energetic. The Luhrs brothers, German immigrants arriving in Phoenix after living in New York, described Phoenix of the 1920's as a mini-New York with streets as energetic as "the city." They even built some of the highest towers of the day on the West Coast here, the Luhrs Tower and Luhrs Central building, which are still standing and currently under renovation. They decided to stay, invest in the city, and make Phoenix home after seeing how great the city was.
Unfortunately, after the 1960's the automobile took hold of the nation, the tracks were ripped out of many American streets (including Phoenix) and replaced with gas buses, suburbs sprang up like weeds, and the suburban autocentric mall, was the final strangle hold on many downtown regions across the country. That old Phoenix charm and extremely dense downtown is building once again. The citizenry, government, and business leadership of Phoenix today seek the revitalization of the core (rising from the ashes once again as a corny reference to the city's name).
Tracks in the street for Phoenix' street rail system started in the late 1880's:
You can find old black and white pics of any city in America during that time period and it would show the same thing, ie, Oklahoma City, Detroit, Omaha, San Diego, Los Angeles, Dallas........
You can find old black and white pics of any city in America during that time period and it would show the same thing, ie, Oklahoma City, Detroit, Omaha, San Diego, Los Angeles, Dallas........
Of course, but the argument goes "that density never existed in Phoenix as it was built as a car city." This is just to disprove that notion and that having a thriving downtown isn't new to Phoenix and the infrastructure, grid,and layout of the area historically supports density.
EDIT: Admittedly, only been searching for a few minutes, but looking for old pictures of L.A., San Diego, Omaha, and OK City with such density and crowded streets in downtown areas with large expanses of high-rises and mid-rises similar to Phoenix but do not find any. They are easily found for Phoenix, Detroit, and Dallas however.
Of course, but the argument goes "that density never existed in Phoenix as it was built as a car city." This is just to disprove that notion and that having a thriving downtown isn't new to Phoenix and the infrastructure, grid,and layout of the area historically supports density.
EDIT: Admittedly, only been searching for a few minutes, but looking for old pictures of L.A., San Diego, Omaha, and OK City with such density and crowded streets in downtown areas with large expanses of high-rises and mid-rises similar to Phoenix but do not find any. They are easily found for Phoenix, Detroit, and Dallas however.
Your letting those density numbers get to your head. PHX is no way in hell urban or walkable and it's not more urban than Houston.
Your letting those density numbers get to your head. PHX is no way in hell urban or walkable and it's not more urban than Houston.
LOL, these arguments are now bunk! This thread has gone from fact finding and informative to pure, ridiculous finger-pointing and bias because the facts don't support YOUR stance. What a waste...
EDIT: Admittedly, only been searching for a few minutes, but looking for old pictures of L.A., San Diego, Omaha, and OK City with such density and crowded streets in downtown areas with large expanses of high-rises and mid-rises similar to Phoenix but do not find any. They are easily found for Phoenix, Detroit, and Dallas however.
Are you kidding me? LA's heyday were the early Hollywood days. Let me help you out here.
EDIT: Admittedly, only been searching for a few minutes, but looking for old pictures of L.A., San Diego, Omaha, and OK City with such density and crowded streets in downtown areas with large expanses of high-rises and mid-rises similar to Phoenix but do not find any. They are easily found for Phoenix, Detroit, and Dallas however.
Wow, this is some madness right here with the LA talk.
LMAO!!! Those people are gathered for a parade! LOL! I mean, downtown Phoenix TODAY looks many times more crowded than that for a parade, Cinco De Mayo or the Fiesta Bowl Parade (Parada del Sol)...
Again, your kidding! Please look at the pics of downtown Phoenix again of the amount of pedestrians just walking around and then look at these three...no comparison!
LMAO!!! Those people are gathered for a parade! LOL! I mean, downtown Phoenix TODAY looks many times more crowded than that for a parade, Cinco De Mayo or the Fiesta Bowl Parade (Parada del Sol)...
Again, your kidding! Please look at the pics of downtown Phoenix again of the amount of pedestrians just walking around and then look at these three...no comparison!
You must be completely out of your gourd if you think Phoenix was anywhere near LA's bustle in the 20s-60s. LA's been several times more populous and denser throughout their existence--including before the age of mass private car ownership.
I won't be posting pictures because they're not mine, but you can easily find pictures of a much busier contemporaneous LA to your Phoenix. Try typing los angeles streetcar and you'll find more than enough proof.
It's odd how unaware you are of your city's history compared to the city's of the rest of the nation. The tail end of dense and compact urban development is pretty much when Phoenix actually exceeded your other three examples in size--that is to say, the era you're directly discussing is actually when Phoenix was most similar to those other cities.
You must be completely out of your gourd if you think Phoenix was anywhere near LA's bustle in the 20s-60s. LA's been several times more populous and denser throughout their existence--including before the age of mass private car ownership.
I won't be posting pictures because they're not mine, but you can easily find pictures of a much busier contemporaneous LA to your Phoenix. Try typing los angeles streetcar and you'll find more than enough proof.
It's odd how unaware you are of your city's history compared to the city's of the rest of the nation. The tail end of dense and compact urban development is pretty much when Phoenix actually exceeded your other three examples in size--that is to say, the era you're directly discussing is actually when Phoenix was most similar to those other cities.
LOL, actually I know all that. L.A. has always had a larger population. I went to school in L.A.(USC) and studied much public policy and planning before switching to Business while there. L.A. has always had "dense sprawl" but not an area of huge congregation. Remember, population and size do not necessarily correlate to "density".
You can have a small population in a very dense situation as is the case in many small European cities. The point is () that while Phoenix was smaller than L.A., Omaha, Oklahoma City, Dallas, etc in the 1950's (144,299 people smaller than Omaha as a matter of fact) it was situated in a MUCH MUCH smaller footprint; hence, the density. It really isn't that hard to understand, LOL!
To illustrate the comparison of a "dense" Omaha to a denser Phoenix we can just look at the population growths between 1920-1960 for both. Phoenix didn't sprout far from its downtown core until after 1960 when the first malls opened up on the "fringes" of the town; or what were the fringes in the 1960's. Back then Christown mall, about 4.5 miles north of the center of downtown, was the northern area of Phoenix in the 50's and 60's that boundary moved to Northern Ave (named to symbolize the northern boundary of Phoenix) a couple miles further north of Christown Mall on Bethany Home Rd (Bethany Home was a tuberculosis "colony" that was considered "far" from Phoenix in the 1920's-1940's).
In 1920 Phoenix had 29,000 people, Omaha 191,061
In 1950 Phoenix had 106,818 people, Omaha 251,117
In 1960 Phoenix had 439,170 people, Omaha 301,598
By the mid 1950's the small city footprint and downtown core had engulfed nearly 300,000 people into relatively few square miles. And like I said, with the automobile and the mid 1960's-1970's, Phoenix spread out in traditional suburban lead-frog form. The street rails were ripped out in the 60's and peopled starting moving to the suburbs.
Last edited by fcorrales80; 02-02-2010 at 02:59 PM..
LOL, actually I know all that. L.A. has always had a larger population. I went to school in L.A.(USC) and studied much public policy and planning before switching to Business while there. L.A. has always had "dense sprawl" but not an area of huge congregation. Remember, population and size do not necessarily correlate to "density".
You can have a small population in a very dense situation as is the case in many small European cities. The point is () that while Phoenix was smaller than L.A., Omaha, Oklahoma City, Dallas, etc in the 1950's (almost 80,000 people smaller than Omaha as a matter of fact) it was situated in a MUCH MUCH smaller footprint; hence, the density. It really isn't that hard to understand, LOL!
Are you kidding? You have to be kidding because almost every city has developed in the same way during that era. Nearly every city had a much smaller footprint--how exactly does a city actually develop without massive density in that era when there weren't the means for easy transportation that would allow for anything but a dense city. Nearly every two-bit town that called itself a city had streetcars and main streets filled with rows of multiple-level buildings side by side. Every city used to have almost nothing but dense areas with only a few further out estates for the wealthy or rural areas. How do you not know this with your extensive knowledge of at least one city's history and having studied "much public policy and planning"?
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This thread has gone from fact finding and informative to pure, ridiculous finger-pointing and bias because the facts don't support YOUR stance. What a waste...
LOL! I mean, downtown Phoenix TODAY looks many times more crowded than that for a parade, Cinco De Mayo or the Fiesta Bowl Parade (Parada del Sol)...
