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Old 04-27-2009, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,261 posts, read 54,982,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
It was an analogy, it wasn't to say that there is a "legal" definition of "Christian";
No, there is no legal definition of Christianity and no group has the right to say any other group is excluded from being considered Christian.

Quote:
it was to say that there is a definition of Christian which has a basis in more than just a group's claim to it.
How incredibly ironic.





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So on the one hand your argument is that there is no "legal" definition for "Christian" but you then supply the NCC's definition as evidence of a definition for "Christian"? Sorry, doesn't work that way./QUOTE]

Actually you said that most of Christendom rejects the LDS Church as being Christian and I presented one example of how your broad generalization is well, wrong.

Like the founders of the Mormon religion, for example...
2nd LDS President Brigham Young - "when the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73).
"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).
"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).
"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth" (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

John Taylor, third president of the LDS Church - "We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).
"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).
"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing….Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

LDS Apostle Orson Pratt - "…all other churches are entirely destitute of all authority from God; and any person who receives Baptism or the Lord's supper from their hands highly offend God, for he looks upon them as the most corrupt of all people" (The Seer, pg. 255).

First Counselor (to Brigham Young) Heber C. Kimball - "Christians - those poor, miserable priests Brother Brigham was speaking about - some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth…." (Journal of Discourses 5:89).

Joseph Smith - When asked, "Will all be damned but Mormon?" he replied, "Yes, and a great portion of them unless they repent and work righteousness" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 119).

John Taylor - "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand?… You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses 6:24).

Orson Pratt - "The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints" (The Seer, pg. 255).

12th President Spencer W. Kimball - "Latter-day Saints are true Christians…We are the true followers of Jesus Christ; and we hope the world will finally come to the conclusion that we are Christians, if there are any in the world" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball. Pg. 434).

LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie - "Mormonism is Christianity; Christianity is Mormonism… Mormons are true Christians; their worship is the pure, unadulterated Christianity authored by Christ and accepted by Peter, James, and John and all the ancients" (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 513).

1 Nephi 14:10 in the Book of Mormon states: "Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the ***** of all the earth."

Bruce McConkie described the "church of the devil" when he wrote, "What is the church of the devil in our day, and what is the seat of her power?…It is all the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that perverted the pure and perfect gospel….It is communism, it is Islam; it is Buddhism; it is modern Christianity in all its parts. It is Germany under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, and Italy under Mussolini" (Millennial Messiah, pg. 54-55). What is truly amazing is the fact that some Mormons cannot understand why Christians are offended by being listed in such a "hall of shame!"

The Doctrine and Covenants (1:30) leaves no doubt about the Mormon teaching of exclusivity when it says the LDS Church is, "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased…."
Just as the Pope is accepted by Catholics to be God's official Mouthpiece on the earth, Mormons believe their President to be a Prophet, Seer and Revelator who overseas the Lord's work on the earth at this time.


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No different from JW's, who are also not Christian, yes.
Once again, Mets are a legal and official term owned by them, 'Christian' is not a term owned by anyone and your definition is no more valid then anothers.

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But different from Catholics, as the Roman Catholic Church's claims are at least based on a 2000+ year history that traces back to Christ Himself.
That doesnt bode well for Protestant churches then does it. So they broke away from 'Christ Himself'?

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Also, the Roman Catholic Church doesn't contend that there are no Christians outside of Catholicism, as they will accept baptism from any Orthodox or (traditional) Protestant (i.e. Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, etc.) Churches as valid Christian Baptism; but they won't accept Mormon baptisms. Neither will mormons accept any other baptism but their own as valid Christian baptism.
That still doesnt really mean that the LDS Church can lay no claim to the term 'christian'. Not in the least.

Quote:
So the Mormons have done as much to set themselves apart from Christianity as Christianity has done to set them apart. I don't understand the latest craze in Mormonism where Mormons are insisting they be called Christians, and focus on similarities with Christians, when their founders said the things they said.
So Mormons can be followers of Christ whose religion revolves around him but they can't call themselves 'Christian"? That's odd.
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:38 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,652,010 times
Reputation: 2646
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
No, there is no legal definition of Christianity and no group has the right to say any other group is excluded from being considered Christian.

How incredibly ironic.

Just as the Pope is accepted by Catholics to be God's official Mouthpiece on the earth, Mormons believe their President to be a Prophet, Seer and Revelator who overseas the Lord's work on the earth at this time.

Once again, Mets are a legal and official term owned by them, 'Christian' is not a term owned by anyone and your definition is no more valid then anothers.

That doesnt bode well for Protestant churches then does it. So they broke away from 'Christ Himself'?

That still doesnt really mean that the LDS Church can lay no claim to the term 'christian'. Not in the least.

So Mormons can be followers of Christ whose religion revolves around him but they can't call themselves 'Christian"? That's odd.
OK, then you must admit that I'm a Latter-day Saint.

And so are:
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS)
Apostolic United Brethren (The Allred Group)
Latter-day Church of Christ (Kingston Clan)
The Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly
The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days (The Church of the First born and/or T.L.C.)
Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (A.K.A. Christ Church Inc. )
The Church of Jesus Christ in Zion-originating from Independence, Missouri
The Original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
The Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,261 posts, read 54,982,722 times
Reputation: 15292
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
OK, then you must admit that I'm a Latter-day Saint.

And so are:
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS)
Apostolic United Brethren (The Allred Group)
Latter-day Church of Christ (Kingston Clan)
The Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly
The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days (The Church of the First born and/or T.L.C.)
Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (A.K.A. Christ Church Inc. )
The Church of Jesus Christ in Zion-originating from Independence, Missouri
The Original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
The Church of the First Born of the Fullness of Times
Those organizations are just as legitimate in their claim to be "Latter Day Saints" as those who are Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

We may have different doctrines, but if that's what they call themselves, so be it.
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:49 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,652,010 times
Reputation: 2646
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
Those organizations are just as legitimate in their claim to be "Latter Day Saints" as those who are Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

We may have different doctrines, but if that's what they call themselves, so be it.
Good, because from now on I'll refer to myself, as well as Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics, and every other denomination as LDS.
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,261 posts, read 54,982,722 times
Reputation: 15292
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
Good, because from now on I'll refer to myself, as well as Baptists, Presbyterians, Catholics, and every other denomination as LDS.
Good Luck with that.
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Jersey
2,292 posts, read 3,385,503 times
Reputation: 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
no group has the right to say any other group is excluded from being considered Christian.

I beg to differ. Centuries of councils, excommunications, mandates/bulls, and wars say otherwise.
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Denver
692 posts, read 2,416,694 times
Reputation: 365
Why would any religion take the name of an hallucinogenic drug ?
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Jersey
2,292 posts, read 3,385,503 times
Reputation: 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by danco View Post
Why would any religion take the name of an hallucinogenic drug ?
Mormons = LDS

Drug = LSD

Your attempt at humor has failed.
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Zurich, Switzerland/ Piedmont, CA
32,261 posts, read 54,982,722 times
Reputation: 15292
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerJAX View Post
I beg to differ. Centuries of councils, excommunications, mandates/bulls, and wars say otherwise.
And yet their claim to legitimacy is no more valid than that of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in any way, shape or form.

Quote:
Every group has the right to determine the criteria for who can join/belongs to the group.
Actually individual Religious denomination have that right. The umbrella of Christianity on the other hand, belongs to no individual religious denomination.
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:03 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,085 posts, read 7,652,010 times
Reputation: 2646
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerJAX View Post
I beg to differ. Centuries of councils, excommunications, mandates/bulls, and wars say otherwise.
Every Christian will differ from the mormon belief on that, Tyler. But the mormons seem to stubbornly cling to the notion that if they just claim to be "Christian" then they are, and nobody else has any say in the matter except the government, should the government legally define the term. So, we end up with the situation we saw in this thread. Christians will never accept Mormons as "Christians", Mormons will throw tantrums insisting that they are and falling back on the "you have no LEGAL claim to that term" argument, and going on calling themselves Christians.

It's like if I started calling myself a Hindu but never followed anything in Hinduism except for one or two things; no Hindu would accept me as such, but I'd look foolish for insisting it.

Just like the example I made by saying I'll call myself LDS from now on - I won't, because I know how foolish it would be and how nobody would take me seriously.

It's just weird that Mormons don't realize that nobody takes their claims of being "Christian" seriously and think it doesn't matter. So, if it doesn't matter to them, I'll call myself LDS whenever I meet their missionaries.
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