New York City has better architecture than Chicago. (live, best, state)

[OyCrumbler]

Osito, if you're only taking the three most urbanized boroughs of five, aren't you selectively editing out any data that doesn't fit your hypothesis? If we're going to do this with NYC, then the same should be done with Chicago where we throw out some of the south and west side because they don't fit what we're looking for very well.

I don't know about what outside the loop of Chicago, so of course I defer to you on that. However, I can tell you the outer boroughs definitely have a good number of strip malls. As for Manhattan, I'm not sure what your definition of a strip mall is, but if you're talking about collections of national chain stores and restaurants in a sterile big-box type environment, then Manhattan certainly has its share. If you're talking about a more suburban look where you can drive and park there, I recall a strip in or near Morningside Heights and another in East Harlem that had some strip mall qualities. Let's define what a strip mall is.

NYC and Chicago have about an 70 square mile difference in land area which would be pretty big considering NYC's only 300 square miles.

I'll add that it's likely that NYC does have a smaller proportion of strip malls--I'm just not too sure about some of your arguments especially given how suburban much of the outer boroughs are.

[Osito57]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

But if you're only taking the three most urbanized boroughs of five, aren't you selectively editing out any data that doesn't fit your hypothesis? If we're going to do this with NYC, then the same should be done with Chicago where we throw out some of the south and west side because they don't fit what we're looking for very well..

Agree 100%.

Now let's compare the North Side, and all its strip malls, even in the core, with Manhattan, Brooklyn and the Bronx, with virtually no strip malls.

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

I don't know about what outside the loop of Chicago, so of course I defer to you on that. However, I can tell you the outer boroughs definitely have a good number of strip malls.

No, they don't. Only Staten Island has "a good number of strip malls" comparable to Chicago.

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

As for Manhattan, I'm not sure what your definition of a strip mall is, but if you're talking about collections of national chain stores and restaurants in a sterile big-box type environment, then Manhattan certainly has its share.

This is absurd.

No, a chain store is not a strip mall. So you are saying that central Tokyo and central Paris are giant strip mall because they are all chains?

Strip malls have nothing to do with chains. They can be independents.

I can't seriously believe you don't know what a strip mall is. For the uninformed, it's retail served by free, usually surface parking, and oriented towards the automobile.

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

If you're talking about a more suburban look where you can drive and park there, I recall a strip in or near Morningside Heights and another in East Harlem that had some strip mall qualities.

No, there are none in Morningside Heights and East Harlem. Please show us these alleged strip malls.

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

NYC and Chicago have about an 80 square mile difference in land area which would be pretty big considering NYC's only 300 square miles.

I'm not sure how this is relevent. NYC has 300 square miles, Chicago has 220, and yet NYC has FAR fewer strip malls. This point seems to work against your argument, which (I guess) is that Chicago is smaller, and therefore should logically have more strip malls?

[Americanboy]

Originally Posted by Gtownoe

NYC is winning by 3 percentage points. If you take all things into account thats pretty much a win for Chicago.

More people have been to NYC than Chicago. NYC is glamourized much more than NYC. NYC is the 8th most expensive city in the world.

Also, nobody is denying that NYC has GREAT architecture.

This forum is full of midwesterners which is why it's ahead.

So then what do these polls reveal?



New York City vs. Chicago Skyline - SkyscraperCity

Most beautiful city in the United States. - SkyscraperCity

And..

America's Favorite Buildings - AIA Polling of the Public

See poll methodology and Wall Street Journal Article at bottom of page.


RANK BUILDING STATE ARCHITECT YEAR COMPLETED FUNCTION
1 Empire State Building NY - New York Shreve, Lamb & Harmon 1931 Skyscraper
2 The White House DC - Washington Hoban, James et al. 1792 Govt.
3 Washington National Cathedral DC - Washington George F. Bodley and Henry Vaughan 1990 Religious
4 Thomas Jefferson Memorial DC - Washington Pope, John Russell 1943 Memorial/Monument
5 Golden Gate Bridge CA - San Francisco Joseph B. Strauss (Engineer) Irving F. Morrow and Gertrude C. Morrow (Architects) 1937 Bridge
6 US Capitol DC - Washington William Thorton, Benjamin Henry Labtrobe, Charles Bulfinch, Thomas U. Walter, Montgomery C. Meigs 1865 Govt.
7 Lincoln Memorial DC - Washington Bacon, Henry 1922 Memorial/Monument
8 Biltmore Estates/Vanderbilt Residence NC - Ashville Hunt, Richard Morris 1895 Residence
9 Chrysler Building NY - New York Van Alen, William 1930 Skyscraper
10 Vietnam Veterans Memorial DC - Washington Maya Lin in association with Cooper-Lecky Partnership 1982 Memorial/Monument
11 St. Patrick's Cathedral NY - New York Renwick, James 1878 Religious
12 Washington Monument DC - Washington Mills, Robert 1884 Memorial/Monument
13 Grand Central Station NY - New York Reed and Stern and Warren and Wetmore 1913 Transit
14 Gateway Arch MO - St. Louis Saarinen, Eero 1965 Memorial/Monument
15 Supreme Court of the United States DC - Washington Gilbert, Cass 1935 Govt.
16 St. Regis NY - New York Trowbridge & Livingston 1904 Hotel
17 Metropolitan Museum of Art NY - New York Vaux, Calvert et al. 1880 Museum
18 Hotel Del Coronado CA - San Diego Reid, James 1888 Hotel
19 World Trade Center NY - New York Yamasaki, Minoru 1973 Skyscraper
20 Brooklyn Bridge NY - New York Roebling, John Augustus 1883 Bridge
21 Philadelphia City Hall PA - Philadelphia McArthur, Jr., John 1881 Govt.
22 Bellagio Hotel and Casino NV - Las Vegas Jerde Partnership with Deruyter Butler and Atlandia Design 1998 Hotel
23 Cathedral of St. John the Divine NY - New York Heins & La Farge and Ralph Adams Cram Religious (unfinished)
24 Philadelphia Museum of Art PA - Philadelphia Trumbauer, Horace 1928 Museum
25 Trinity Church MA - Boston Richardson, Henry Hobson 1877 Religious
26 Ahwanee Hotel CA - Yosemite Valley Underwood, Gilbert Stanley 1928 Hotel
27 Monticello VA - Charlottesville Jefferson, Thomas 1808 Residence
28 Library of Congress DC - Washington John L. Smithmeyer and Paul J. Pelz 1897 Govt./Library
29 Falling Water/Edgar J. Kaufmann Sr. Residence PA -Bear Run Wright, Frank Lloyd 1935 Residence
30 Taliesin East WI - Spring Green Wright, Frank Lloyd 1911 Residence
31 Wrigley Field - Chicago, IL IL -Chicago Davis, Zachary Taylor 1914 Sports
32 Wanamaker's Department Store PA - Philadelphia Burnham, Daniel 1909 Retail
33 Rose Center for Earth and Space - American Museum of Natural History, Museum of Natural History NY - New York Polshek Partnership 2000 Museum
34 National Gallery of Art (West Wing) DC - Washington Pope, John Russell 1941 Museum
35 Allegheny Country Courthouse PA - Pittsburgh Richardson, Henry Hobson 1886 Govt.
36 Old Faithful Inn WY - Yellowstone National Park Reamer, Robert 1927 Hotel
37 Union Station DC - Washington Burnham, Daniel 1903 Transit
38 Tribune Tower IL - Chicago Howells & Hood 1925 Skyscraper
39 Delano Hotel FL - Miami Beach Swartburg, Robert 1947 Hotel
40 Union Station MO -St. Louis Link, Theodore C. 1894 Transit
41 Hearst Residence CA - San Simeon Morgan, Julia 1947 Residence
42 Sears Tower IL - Chicago Skidmore, Owings & Merrill (Bruce Graham) 1974 Skyscraper
43 Crane Library MA - Qunicy Richardson, Henry Hobson 1882 Library
44 Cincinnati Union Terminal OH - Cincinnati Alfred Fellheimer and Stewart Wagner, consulting architect Paul Philippe Cret 1933 Transit
45 Woolworth Building NY - New York Gilbert, Cass 1913 Skyscraper
46 Waldorf Astoria NY - New York Schultze & Weaver 1931 Hotel
47 New York Public Library NY - New York Carrere & Hastings 1911 Library
48 Carnegie Hall NY - New York Tuthill, William B. 1891 Auditorium
49 San Francisco City Hall CA - San Francisco Brown, Jr., Arthur 1915 Govt.
50 Virginia State Capitol VA - Richmond Jefferson, Thomas 1788 Govt.
51 Cadet Chapel - Air Force Academy CO - Colorado Springs Skidmore Owings & Merill (Walter Netsch) 1962 Govt./Religious
52 Field Museum of Natural History IL -Chicago Atwood, Charles B. 1893 Museum
53 Apple - 5th Avenue NY - New York Bohlin Cywinski Jackson 2006 Retail
54 Furness Library - University of Pennsylvania PA - Philadelphia Furness, Frank 1888 Library
55 Mauna Kea Beach Hotel HI - Kohala Coast (the Big Island) Skidmore, Owings & Merrill 1867 Hotel
56 Rockefeller Center NY - New York Hood, Raymond, et. al. 1940 Skyscraper
57 Denver International Airport CO - Denver Fentress Bradburn Architects 1995 Transit
58 Ames Library MA - North Easton Richardson, Henry Hobson 1879 Library
59 Milwaukee Art Museum WI - Milwaukee Calatrava, Santiago 2001 Museum
60 Thorncrown Chapel AR - Eureka Springs Jones, E. Fay 1980 Religious
61 TransAmerica Building CA - San Francisco Pereira, William 1972 Skyscraper
62 333 Wacker Drive IL - Chicago Kohn Pedersen Fox 1983 Skyscraper
63 Smithsonian National Air & Space Museum DC - Washington Hellmuth, Obata + Kasabaum (Gyo Obata) 1976 Museum
64 Faneuil Hall Marketplace MA - Boston Thompson, Benjamin (Renovation) 1978 Retail
65 Crystal Cathedral CA -Garden Grove Johnson, Philip 1980 Religious
66 Gamble House CA - Pasadena Greene and Greene 1908 Residence
67 Nebraska State Capital NE - Lincoln Bertram Grosvenor Goodhue 1932 Govt.
68 New York Times Building NY - New York Piano, Renzo 2007 Skyscraper
69 Salt Lake City Public Library UT - Salt Lake City Moshe Safdie and VCBO Architecture Associates 2003 Library
70 Dolphin and Swan - Walt Disney World FL - Orlando (Lake Buena Vista) Graves, Michael 1990 Hotel
71 Hearst Tower NY - New York Foster, Norman 2006 Skyscraper
72 Flatiron Building/Fuller Building NY - New York Burnham, Daniel 1903 Skyscraper
73 Lake Point Tower IL - Chicago George Schipporeit and John Heinrick 1968 Skyscraper
74 Guggenheim Museum NY - New York Wright, Frank Lloyd 1959 Museum
75 Union Station CA - Los Angeles Parkinson, John and Donald B. 1939 Transit
76 Willard Hotel DC - Washington Hardenbergh, Henry Janeway 1901 Hotel
77 Sever Hall MA - Cambridge Richardson, Henry Hobson 1880 Auditorium
78 Broadmoor Hotel CO - Colorado Springs Warren & Wetmore 1918 Hotel
79 Ronald Reagan Building DC - Washington Pei Cobb Freed & Partners (James Ingo Freed) 1998 Govt.
80 Phillips Exeter Academy Library NH - Exeter Kahn, Louis I. 1972 Library
81 The Plaza Hotel NY - New York Hardenbergh, Henry Janeway 1907 Hotel
82 Sofitel IL -Chicago Viguier, Jean-Paul 2002 Skyscraper/Hotel
83 Glessner House IL -Chicago Richardson, Henry Hobson 1887 Residence
84 Yankee Stadium NY - New York Osborn Engineering Company 1923 Sports
85 Chicago Public Library IL - Chicago Hammond, Beeby & Babka 1991 Library
86 Lincoln Center NY - New York Harrison, Wallace K. et al 1968 Auditorium
87 The Dakota Apartments NY - New York Hardenbergh, Henry Janeway 1884 Residence
88 Art Institute Of Chicago IL - Chicago Shelply, Rutan, and Coolidge 1893 Museum
89 Fairmont Hotel CA - San Francisco Reid & Reid and Julia Morgan 1906 Hotel
90 Boston Public Library MA - Boston McKim, Mead, and White 1895 Library
91 Hollywood Bowl CA - Hollywood Lloyd Wright, Allied Architects, Frank Gehry 1924 Auditorium
92 Texas State Capitol TX - Austin Myers, Elijah E. 1888 Govt.
93 Fontainebleau FL - Miami Beach Lapidus, Morris 1954 Hotel
94 University of Michigan Law Library MI - Ann Arbor York & Sawyer 1931 Library
95 Getty Museum CA - Los Angeles Meier, Richard 1997 Museum
96 High Museum GA - Atlanta Meier, Richard 1983 Museum
97 Federal Building and United States Courthouse NY - Islip Meier, Richard 2000 Govt.
98 Humana Building KY - Louisville Graves, Michael 1986 Skyscraper
99 Disney Concert Hall CA - Los Angeles Gehry, Frank 2003 Auditorium
100 Radio City Music Hall NY - New York Stone, Edward Durell and Donald Deskey 1932 Auditorium
101 Paul Brown Stadium OH - Cincinnati NBBJ 2000 Sports
102 United Airlines Terminal - O'Hare IL -Chicago Jahn, Helmut 1988 Transit
103 Hyatt Regency GA - Atlanta Portman, John 1967 Hotel
104 AT&T Park (San Francisco Giants Stadium) CA - San Francisco Hellmuth, Obata + Kassabaum 2000 Sports
105 Time Warner Center NY - New York Skidmore Owings & Merill (David Childs) 2003 Skyscraper
106 Washington, DC Metro DC - Washington Weese, Harry 1976 Transit
107 IDS Center/IDS Tower MN - Minneapolis Philip Johnson and John Burgee 1972 Skyscraper
108 Seattle Public Library WA - Seattle Office of Metroplitan Architecture (Rem Koolhaas) 2004 Library
109 Museum of Modern Art CA - San Francisco Botta, Mario 1995 Museum
110 Union Station IL - Chicago Graham, Anderson, Probst & White 1925 Transit
111 United Nations Headquarters NY - New York Wallace K. Harrison, Le Corbusier, Oscar Niemeyer et al. 1953 Govt./Skyscraper
112 National Building Museum/Pension Building DC - Washington Meigs, Montgomery C. 1887 Museum
113 Fenway Park MA - Boston Osborn Engineering Company 1912 Sports
114 Dana-Thomas House IL - Springfield, IL Wright, Frank Lloyd 1904 Residence
115 TWA Terminal - JFK Airport NY - New York Saarinen, Eero 1962 Transit
116 The Athenaeum IN - New Harmony Meier, Richard 1979 Auditorium
117 Walker Art Center MN - Minneapolis Herzog & de Meuron 2005 Museum
118 American Airlines Center TX - Dallas David M. Schwarz/Architectural Services and HKS 2001 Sports
119 Biltmore Arizona AZ - Phoenix McArthur, Albert Chase 1929 Hotel
120 Los Angeles Central Library CA - Los Angeles Bertram Grosvenor Goodhue 1922 Library
121 San Francisco International Airport CA - San Francisco Skidmore, Owings & Merrill 2000 Transit
122 Camden Yards MD - Baltimore Hellmuth, Obata + Kassabaum 1992 Sports
123 Taliesin West AZ - Scottsdale Wright, Frank Lloyd 1937 Residence
124 Holocaust Museum DC - Washington Pei Cobb Freed & Partners (James Ingo Freed) 1993 Museum
125 Citicorp Center NY - New York Stubbins, Hugh 1978 Skyscraper
126 V. C. Morris Gift Shop / Xanadu Gallery CA - San Francisco Wright, Frank Lloyd 1948 Retail
127 Union Station MO - Kansas City Hunt, Jarvis 1914 Transit
128 Rookery Building IL - Chicago Burnham & Root, Frank Lloyd Wright (Lobby) 1888 Skyscraper
129 Weisman Art Museum - U. of Minnesota Twin Cities MN - Minneapolis Gehry, Frank 1993 Museum
130 Douglas House MI - Harbor Springs Meier, Richard 1973 Residence
131 Barnsdall House/ Hollyhock House CA - Los Angeles Wright, Frank Lloyd 1920 Residence
132 Pennzoil Place TX - Houston Philip Johnson and John Burgee 1975 Skyscraper
133 Royalton Hotel NY - New York Starck, Philippe (Renovation) 1988 Hotel
134 Astrodome TX - Houston Hermon Lloyd & W.B. Morgan and Wilson, Morris, Crain & Anderson 1965 Sports
135 Safeco Field WA - Seattle NBBJ 1999 Sports
136 Corning Museum of Glass NY - Corning Harrison & Abramowitz, Smith-Miller + Hawkinson, and Gunnar Birkerts 1951 Museum
137 30th Street Station PA - Philadelphia Graham, Anderson, Probst and White 1934 Transit
138 Robie House IL - Chicago Wright, Frank Lloyd 1909 Residence
139 Williams Tower (Transco Tower) TX - Houston Philip Johnson and John Burgee 1983 Skyscraper
140 Stahl House/Case Study House #22 CA - Los Angeles Koenig, Pierre 1960 Residence
141 Apple (SoHo) NY - New York Ronnette Riley Architect 2002 Retail
142 John Hancock Hotel and Conference Center MA - Boston I.M. Pei & Partners 1976 Skyscraper
143 Pennsylvania Station/Penn Station NY - New York McKim, Mead and White 1910 Transit
144 Hyatt Regency CA - San Francisco Portman, John 1973 Hotel
145 Carson Pirie Scott IL - Chicago Sullivan, Louis 1899 Skyscraper
146 Museum of Modern Art NY - New York Philip Johnson, Cesar Pelli (1984), Yoshio Taniguchi (2004) 1964 Museum
147 Auditorium Building IL - Chicago Dankmar Adler and Louis Sullivan 1889 Skyscraper
148 Brown Palace CO - Denver Edbrooke, Frank E. 1892 Hotel
149 Ingalls Ice Arena - Yale University CT - New Haven Saarinen, Eero 1958 Sports
150 Battle Hall - University of Texas TX - Austin Gilbert, Cass 1911 Library



I think it's fair to assume that most people think NYC has better architecture.

[BigCityGuy]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

Osito, if you're only taking the three most urbanized boroughs of five, aren't you selectively editing out any data that doesn't fit your hypothesis? If we're going to do this with NYC, then the same should be done with Chicago where we throw out some of the south and west side because they don't fit what we're looking for very well.

I don't know about what outside the loop of Chicago, so of course I defer to you on that. However, I can tell you the outer boroughs definitely have a good number of strip malls. As for Manhattan, I'm not sure what your definition of a strip mall is, but if you're talking about collections of national chain stores and restaurants in a sterile big-box type environment, then Manhattan certainly has its share. If you're talking about a more suburban look where you can drive and park there, I recall a strip in or near Morningside Heights and another in East Harlem that had some strip mall qualities. Let's define what a strip mall is.

NYC and Chicago have about an 70 square mile difference in land area which would be pretty big considering NYC's only 300 square miles.

I'll add that it's likely that NYC does have a smaller proportion of strip malls--I'm just not too sure about some of your arguments especially given how suburban much of the outer boroughs are.

Strip mall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A strip mall (also called a shopping plaza or mini-mall) is an open area shopping center where the stores are arranged in a row, with a sidewalk in front. Strip malls are typically developed as a unit and have large parking lots in front. They face major traffic arterials and tend to be self-contained with few pedestrian connections to surrounding neighborhoods.

[mas23]

Originally Posted by fashionguy

Agree. I took this picture several blocks from Sears Tower. An average joe in Chicago leads a suburban life, goes to strip mall like structures to get his necessities during his daily life. Chicago has the nice waterfront from John Hancock cluster up till one Museum Park. But outside this line, it is almost devoid of architectural diversity.

Wow!. IDK what to say about this. Thats just not true

[prelude91]

Originally Posted by Gtownoe

Manhatten is a densely packed island. It is THE core of NYC and while its not all considered downtown (due to its massive size) it works as the "downtown" of the NYC metro area.

If you want to talk about the downtown of Chicago. Then talk about the Loop.

Where do you see strip malls in the loop?

Yes, NYC is denser than Chicago. Everybody gets that. I'm personally glad its not as dense as NYC.

Can we get back to the topic of architecture?

Comparing the entire borough of manhattan to the loop is ridiculous. How do areas like harlem, washington heights, greenwich village act as the central business district of nyc?

[prelude91]

Originally Posted by Drover

True, I misread the data. So we have neighborhoods that are anywhere from suburban-like to 50,000 people per square mile. But again, the point wasn't to compare Chicago to New York, which every New Yorker seems to want to do whether that's the actual point or not. The point is that the notion that the average Chicagoan lives a suburban lifestyle is ridiculous.

What's misleading is saying Chicago is "suburban" and then using a picture of an open field to try to prove your point when there are condo highrises literally 25 feet behind where the person who took the picture was standing, like the person I was originally responding to tried to do.

I couldn't agree more...

[BigCityGuy]

Originally Posted by prelude91

Comparing the entire borough of manhattan to the loop is ridiculous. How do areas like harlem, washington heights, greenwich village act as the central business district of nyc?

Thats laughable. They do, why they are home to many businesses, cultural institutions and events, hundreds of stores and restaurants, clubs, tourist attractions, etc

Example 125th Street

4 Subway Stations 1 Metro North Stations


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Apollo_Theater.jpg (broken link)




http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/6003/p1010113xf1.jpg (broken link)

[cyrusjul]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

I don't know about what outside the loop of Chicago, so of course I defer to you on that. However, I can tell you the outer boroughs definitely have a good number of strip malls. As for Manhattan, I'm not sure what your definition of a strip mall is, but if you're talking about collections of national chain stores and restaurants in a sterile big-box type environment, then Manhattan certainly has its share. If you're talking about a more suburban look where you can drive and park there, I recall a strip in or near Morningside Heights and another in East Harlem that had some strip mall qualities.

LOL what that hell are you talking about now? Strip malls = chain stores? You clearly need to see what a strip mall really is. Manhattan architecture is so amazingly done and dense that there is no way to fit a real strip mall in that island.

Also the loop still has so many parking lots and parking garages! And that is the core of Chicago! So the Loop has better architecture than Midtown or Downtown Manhattan? Get out of here.

You guys should really see all the architecture diversity NYC have. These 'experts' are probably been nice to Chicago or they don't really walk that much in NYC. But clearly NYC has the best architecture. More buildings = more different architecture!!! I mean come on!

[mas23]

BTW a lot of feilds in chicago were once the site of CHA buildings and thats as far from suburban as u can get.