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Pittsburgh's downtown is, indeed, dense and small -- it's tight triangle that's hemmed in by rivers on 2 sides and the steep hills of the Hill District on the 3rd side. These factors make it feel more vibrant than downtown Cleveland during the day. There are simply more businesses, law firms and corporate offices Pittsburgh's core... Downtown Cleveland, however, has a significantly larger residential presence that downtown Pittsburgh, and Cleveland apartment/condo dwelling CBD population is swelling rapidly. That's probably why Cleveland has 2 downtown supermarkets -- the beautiful, full-service aforementioned Heinen's and the smaller, more specialty Constantino's in the Warehouse District. It's also why, by day, downtown Pittsburgh seems more bustling while the reverse is true after 6p on a weekday and, definitely, on weekends when downtown Cleveland is electric.
A lot of this, admittedly, is due to semantics. Clevland's downtown, IIRC, is 2.1 square miles, while Pittsburgh's is 0.64 (really less when you discount the Civic Arena parking crater - which should be part of the Lower Hill - along with Point State Park). if Pittsburgh's downtown was defined the same way that Cleveland's is, it would include the North Shore, lower Strip District, closer part of Uptown (including Duquense's campus) and Station Square. This would result in it including nearly everything that you find in Cleveland's downtown, including tourist traps, all the sports stadiums, a major university campus, large new apartment projects, and gritty semi-run down industrial areas (although the Strip is getting pretty yuppie these days.
This would result in it including nearly everything that you find in Cleveland's downtown, including tourist traps, all the sports stadiums, a major university campus, large new apartment projects, and gritty semi-run down industrial areas (although the Strip is getting pretty yuppie these days.
I doubt if downtown areas are defined by activities as much as by geographical boundaries -- in the case of Cleveland, Lake Erie, the Cuyahoga River, and the I-90 Innerbelt to the south and west. I think those downtown boundaries would be commonly respected by most Greater Clevelanders. The Wikipedia article for downtown Cleveland linked earlier also reflects these boundaries.
This Google map excludes from modern downtown Cleveland the area south of Stones Levee and north of I-90 where there might be some "semi-run down industrial areas," although in that area, I would argue that at least heavily-traveled Carnegie Ave. is the perceived southern boundary of downtown, but this perception may differ from some official designation. This map also has downtown extending a short distance south of I-90 along Broadway and Orange Avenues, apparently to include the large I-90/I-77 interchanges.
I'm not certain if there is much "gritty semi-run down industrial areas within those Cleveland downtown boundaries these days -- perhaps in portions of the East Flats that I haven't visited in decades.
As noted in an earlier post, downtown Cleveland has large amounts of open space, including Public Square and the Mall in the heart of its business and civic areas, respectively, as well as Burke Lakefront Airport and Voinovich Bicentennial Park on Lake Erie. There also is a river walk and park areas in the East Flats. Much of the traffic downtown, especially in the winter, isn't on the streets, but in Tower City (which has many tunnels connecting massive office buildings) and in the three Arcades. Tower City is connected to Quicken Loans Arena and Progressive Field by a well-used pedestrian walkway.
Much of the pedestrian traffic after Indians' games at Progressive Field moves up East 9th St. towards the Thirsty Parrot, Wilbert's, and the Winking Lizard, and parking garages north of Euclid Ave., and west on Prospect Ave. to also less expensive garages and parking lots. Both this pedestrian traffic flow, and the Tower City pedestrian walkway, pulls pedestrian traffic away from East 4th St.
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To clarify, when I say Pittsburgh has the larger downtown, I'm not referring to land area. I'm speaking about building and people density and the proliferation of events and traffic downtown. Pittsburgh's downtown has more of a "big city" presence; there is no way somebody could be in both and feel Cleveland personifies a larger city more than Pittsburgh...
I'd agree that they are complementary cities within the sane tier, but Pittsburgh is the more impressive city on whole. True enough, I didn't make it to University Circle or the eastern suburbs, but I also didn t make it to every Pittsburgh neighborhood. Cleveland is a more comfortable city for me (much less hilly, more diversity, most alike urban WNY, other reasons), but as a visitor Pittsburgh makes the best overall impression!
To clarify, when I say Pittsburgh has the larger downtown, I'm not referring to land area. I'm speaking about building and people density and the proliferation of events and traffic downtown. Pittsburgh's downtown has more of a "big city" presence; there is no way somebody could be in both and feel Cleveland personifies a larger city more than Pittsburgh...
Events downtown? Depending upon your definition of downtown, I doubt very much that Pittsburgh eclipses downtown Cleveland.
PlayhouseSquare alone draws 1 million guests to 1,000+ annual events, and all of Cleveland's five pro sports franchises play in downtown venues, drawing millions more.
To clarify, when I say Pittsburgh has the larger downtown, I'm not referring to land area. I'm speaking about building and people density and the proliferation of events and traffic downtown. Pittsburgh's downtown has more of a "big city" presence; there is no way somebody could be in both and feel Cleveland personifies a larger city more than Pittsburgh...
The term "big city" is subjective. If you mean daytime/rush hour hustle bustle, I would agree. I would give Pittsburgh the edge -- not by as much as you're giving it, but I would go with Pittsburgh on this front... However many people also equate a "big city" feel with a vibrant core of shops, restaurants and a significant residential population. On this front, Cleveland has a significant nod. While corporate HQs have left Cleveland over the last 3 decades, the growth in downtown, particularly with the massive adaptive reuse of old office buildings and towers-- usually fueled by state historic tax credits -- along with some spot new/newer construction -- the Pinnacle (high end condos), Flats East Bank Apts, Crittenden Courts Apts, and the recently green-lighted apartment tower: The Beacon -- a 19-story (187 suite) luxury residential tower sitting on an existing, 8-floor, mixed-use parking garage in the heart of downtown. Nearly 600 apartment units are slated to come online in the immediate 1-block area of The Beacon, alone, not to mention conversions and buildings rising in other parts of downtown.
To clarify, when I say Pittsburgh has the larger downtown, I'm not referring to land area. I'm speaking about building and people density and the proliferation of events and traffic downtown. Pittsburgh's downtown has more of a "big city" presence; there is no way somebody could be in both and feel Cleveland personifies a larger city more than Pittsburgh...
The term "big city" is subjective. If you mean daytime/rush hour hustle bustle, I would agree. I would give Pittsburgh the edge -- not by as much as you're giving it, but I would go with Pittsburgh on this front... However many people also equate a "big city" feel with a vibrant core of shops, restaurants and a significant residential population. On this front, Cleveland has a significant nod. While corporate HQs have left Cleveland over the last 3 decades, the growth in downtown, particularly with the massive adaptive reuse of old office buildings and towers-- usually fueled by state historic tax credits -- along with some spot new/newer construction -- the Pinnacle (high end condos), Flats East Bank Apts, Crittenden Courts Apts, and the recently green-lighted apartment tower: The Beacon -- a 19-story (187 suite) luxury residential tower sitting on an existing, 8-floor, mixed-use parking garage in the heart of downtown. Nearly 600 apartment units are slated to come online in the immediate 1-block area of The Beacon, alone, not to mention conversions and buildings rising in other parts of downtown.
Right now, downtown Cleveland is developing the feel of the Upper West Side of Manhattan. The Heinen's and Constantino's grocery stores are only enhancing that feeling -- and these stores aren't just cutesy additions; they were developed out of a growing need by the FT residents surrounding them.
To clarify, when I say Pittsburgh has the larger downtown, I'm not referring to land area. I'm speaking about building and people density and the proliferation of events and traffic downtown. Pittsburgh's downtown has more of a "big city" presence; there is no way somebody could be in both and feel Cleveland personifies a larger city more than Pittsburgh...
The term "big city" is subjective. If you mean daytime/rush hour hustle bustle, I would agree. I would give Pittsburgh the edge -- not by as much as you're giving it, but I would go with Pittsburgh on this front... However many people also equate a "big city" feel with a vibrant core of shops, restaurants and a significant residential population. On this front, Cleveland has a significant nod. While corporate HQs have left Cleveland over the last 3 decades, the growth in downtown, particularly with the massive adaptive reuse of old office buildings and towers-- usually fueled by state historic tax credits -- along with some spot new/newer construction -- the Pinnacle (high end condos), Flats East Bank Apts, Crittenden Courts Apts, and the recently green-lighted apartment tower: The Beacon -- a 19-story (187 suite) luxury residential tower sitting on an existing, 8-floor, mixed-use parking garage in the heart of downtown. Nearly 600 apartment units are slated to come online in the immediate 1-block area of The Beacon, alone, not to mention conversions and buildings rising in other parts of downtown.
Right now, downtown Cleveland is developing the feel of the Upper West Side of Manhattan. The Heinen's and Constantinos grocery stores are only enhancing that feeling -- and these stores aren't just cutesy additions; they were developed out of a growing need by the FT residents surrounding them.
Is it accurate that Pittsburghers equate downtown Pittsburgh with only the Central Business District?
As others said, for the most part yes. Not that all of Downtown is skyscrapers of course - there are lower-slung portions like the Cultural District, Market Square, and First Side. But Downtown Pittsburgh generally doesn't have well-defined sub-neighborhoods the way Downtown Cleveland does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
I'm not certain if there is much "gritty semi-run down industrial areas within those Cleveland downtown boundaries these days -- perhaps in portions of the East Flats that I haven't visited in decades.
Yeah, I was thinking about the areas in Downtown Cleveland to the east of E 13th Street. Lots of surface parking lots, and 1-2 story warehouse type buildings. Downtown Pittsburgh has nothing like it, but it's very reminiscent of some portions of the Strip District before the recent development boom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative
As noted in an earlier post, downtown Cleveland has large amounts of open space, including Public Square and the Mall in the heart of its business and civic areas, respectively, as well as Burke Lakefront Airport and Voinovich Bicentennial Park on Lake Erie. There also is a river walk and park areas in the East Flats. Much of the traffic downtown, especially in the winter, isn't on the streets, but in Tower City (which has many tunnels connecting massive office buildings) and in the three Arcades. Tower City is connected to Quicken Loans Arena and Progressive Field by a well-used pedestrian walkway.
IMHO the single worst thing about downtown Cleveland are all the surface parking lots everywhere. I know Pittsburgh is an outlier for a rust belt city, but there's only a handful of parking lots left in downtown, and it shrinks by 1-2 lots every year due to infill.
As others said, for the most part yes. Not that all of Downtown is skyscrapers of course - there are lower-slung portions like the Cultural District, Market Square, and First Side. But Downtown Pittsburgh generally doesn't have well-defined sub-neighborhoods the way Downtown Cleveland does.
Yeah, I was thinking about the areas in Downtown Cleveland to the east of E 13th Street. Lots of surface parking lots, and 1-2 story warehouse type buildings. Downtown Pittsburgh has nothing like it, but it's very reminiscent of some portions of the Strip District before the recent development boom.
IMHO the single worst thing about downtown Cleveland are all the surface parking lots everywhere. I know Pittsburgh is an outlier for a rust belt city, but there's only a handful of parking lots left in downtown, and it shrinks by 1-2 lots every year due to infill.
Yea, the parking lots of downtown Cleveland seem really expansive and it really seems to suck the life out of downtown in comparison to downtown Pittsburgh. It's also especially weird that there's such a massive amount of parking near the Tower City – Public Square station. It feels like Cleveland did an especially heavy take on the urban renewal policies and leveling older buildings downtown because these lots seem so large and common.
Are there plans to infill some of these massive lots? Does there seem to have been a general trend of building over these things in recent years?
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