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Agreed, but when sunbelt cities ruthlessly take jobs from northern cities using stimulus money, that is just wrong .
I won't touch the stimulus issue, but as far as the taking jobs issue - as a native Michigander in the Sun Belt for the last 20 years - I always have to address the "stealing jobs" issue.
Companies exist to make a profit. If companies don't maximize profit, they will either go out of business because they cannot compete, or another company or entrepreneur will take them over and proceed to maximize profits.
So much of the political scene in Northern states - with Michigan being the quintessential example, but Pennsylvania also a great fit - was based on treating industries in those states as golden geese. Tax, tax, tax. Re-distribute, spend, re-distribute some more. Regulate, regulate, regulate. Give unions all the power that they want. After all, we have the golden goose to rape!
As it turns out, the golden goose has legs. And he ran like hell when globalization allowed him to do so. Slavery and Jim Crow were the things holding the South back in that regard. History buffs know that Atlanta was essentially the only city in the Deep South that made a firm effort to reject Jim Crow, and had a long string of progressive mayors, such as Hartsfield to Allen, who made it clear that capital mattered more than ante-bellum pride. Hence the phrase "the city too busy (creating jobs, educating its population, etc.) to hate."
Note that this isn't purely a North - South thing. California, not having learned the lessons of the past, is hemorrhaging jobs (and residents) to Nevada and Arizona.
About the stealing companies. Its how capitalism works. The northern states need to drop the unions and layers of government to make the cost of doing business a bit lower.
One thing that isn't fair is that some of these sunbelt cities are stealing tax money. States such as NY give lots of money in federal taxes paid, but receive far less, the money going to southern states. Companies leave NY, and rightfully so, but we pay more in taxes and receive a lot less in return.
"Wrong" in what sense? Legally? Morally? Or could it just be...bitterness?
Hate to say it like this, but either move or get over it.
Morally. It leads to sprawl and pollution in a once unspoiled region of rich farmland and woods (which we now call the Atlanta metropolitan area)
Somehow, I don't see that this is productive for our nation, because after all, we are one unit, like it or not. If we just keep shifting our people and jobs all over the place for no apparent reason without some balance in the system, then it will lead to... distress, which has been happeneing since WWII. All we are really doing is just building new infastructure frivelessly (if that's not a word, I just invented it) into the great beyond when we already built reliable infastructure that is being underutulized. Think of the billions of dollars our nation is wasting on upgrading freeways and byways in suburbia, and the billions more that our government is wasting on trying to solve problems that shouldn't have existed in the first place.
Yes, I know I frequently cite my hometown and region as being adversely affected by this, but I am not bitter about it, just confused. Slowly, though, I am figuring out the mentality and arguements used behind sprawl, and why it is such a draw for many people, and basically where the north went wrong, socially, to be so repellent to much of mainstream America, which used to be the south's job.
Also, for the southeastern sunbelt states, it is quite amazing how they overcame their image as the land of bigotry, racism, and closed-mindedness to become a popular hotspot of America, so much so that their culture invaded our politics (conservatism), popular culture(increasing popularity of country music during this time), and lifestyle. I just don't understand why the rust belt cannot counter this somehow. I guess if I'm lucky I'll live a few more years and find out
Morally. It leads to sprawl and pollution in a once unspoiled region of rich farmland and woods (which we now call the Atlanta metropolitan area)
Oh give me a break! Every city that exists was once an "unspoiled region of rich farmland and woods" (except maybe Phoenix and Vegas), and that has nothing to do with how jobs and industry came to be in those areas.
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Somehow, I don't see that this is productive for our nation, because after all, we are one unit, like it or not. If we just keep shifting our people and jobs all over the place for no apparent reason without some balance in the system, then it will lead to... distress, which has been happeneing since WWII.
"No apparent reason"?????? You think companies would go through all of that hassle and spend all of that money relocating operations hundreds of miles from one state/region to another state/region just for fun? Do you even know how the game works?
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All we are really doing is just building new infastructure frivelessly (if that's not a word, I just invented it) into the great beyond when we already built reliable infastructure that is being underutulized.
It's highly unreasonable to think that a country that's growing as much as ours would only have jobs and industry concentrated in one or two regions. And you DO know that people, millions of them, have been living in the region we now call the Sunbelt for a long time now, right? So I'm not sure where this "great beyond" is you're talking about. And surely you realize that at one time, the Midwest was the "great beyond" as well, right? Should not there be industry in other areas of the country, and the infrastructure to support them, to serve the populations of those regions? I really just don't get your train of thought.
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Yes, I know I frequently cite my hometown and region as being adversely affected by this, but I am not bitter about it, just confused.
Your statements clearly show bitterness and frustration on your part.
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Slowly, though, I am figuring out the mentality and arguements used behind sprawl, and why it is such a draw for many people, and basically where the north went wrong, socially, to be so repellent to much of mainstream America, which used to be the south's job.
There's that superiority complex rearing its ugly head again. Not even gonna go into that one, it's been covered multiple times here.
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Also, for the southeastern sunbelt states, it is quite amazing how they overcame their image as the land of bigotry, racism, and closed-mindedness to become a popular hotspot of America, so much so that their culture invaded our politics (conservatism), popular culture(increasing popularity of country music during this time), and lifestyle. I just don't understand why the rust belt cannot counter this somehow. I guess if I'm lucky I'll live a few more years and find out
Hold on, hold on, hold on...you're actually saying that the Southeast has a corner on conservatism? Did you REALLY just say that? I mean REALLY?
Morally. It leads to sprawl and pollution in a once unspoiled region of rich farmland and woods (which we now call the Atlanta metropolitan area)...
Manhattan was once rich woods. So was that rather large industrial cesspool across the Hudson River, which has no small number of sprawl and pollution issues. South Florida was once swamp; Southern California, orange groves and desert. And the checkerboard layout of the Midwest was definitely imposed by man.
Yeah, the southeast kinda started conservatism, if you want to refer to your histroy book. It was called Barry Goldwater in 1964. Funny thought at the time, but it matured.[/clever response to sarcasm]
Anyways, as for the rest...
Woods comment: at one time, it was possible for a squrriel to get from one side of Ohio to another without touching the ground. Then us Europeans plowed it under. but many animals could still live on the farmland. It is impossible for wildlife to live on pavement and poisoned grass. The point I'm getting at is that in the north, we did (but no longer) do development smarter.
The corporate comment: take a look at your state's business track record and then we'll talk.
The sprawl comment; agreed, and the "building into the great beyond' that was mentioned is happening in the north, too. Your region is doing this irresponsible practice at a much faster rate, though, leading to my scolding.
Hometown: Look, I'm frustrated with sprawl, those who support it, and those who think "job shifting" is just some fun game that doesn't drastically affect people's lives and communities negatively. I'm not bitter, and I understand those in my region would most likely act in a similar manner if they were the recipients of, say, Delta or something, but it is still wrong regardless. Honestly, they need to tax it or something, because it is just a waste.
And to finish this post off; we aren't going to accomplish anything bashing each other here. This has gone way off topic, and running like 20 bazillion Atlanta threads at the same time shows a select few (Atlanta posters) have a problem with superiority and overimportance. Have fun in sprawl-land, and best of luck to your city and state.
Yeah, the southeast kinda started conservatism, if you want to refer to your histroy book. It was called Barry Goldwater in 1964. Funny thought at the time, but it matured.[/clever response to sarcasm]
Doesn't matter where it started; the Midwest is a hotbed of breadbasket conservatism.
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Woods comment: at one time, it was possible for a squrriel to get from one side of Ohio to another without touching the ground. Then us Europeans plowed it under. but many animals could still live on the farmland. It is impossible for wildlife to live on pavement and poisoned grass. The point I'm getting at is that in the north, we did (but no longer) do development smarter.
You're trying to subtly change your "point" now, but it won't work. Next...
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The corporate comment: take a look at your state's business track record and then we'll talk.
What about it? You essentially said that companies move to other areas for no reason whatsoever. That's so uninformed that it really didn't even deserve a response.
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The sprawl comment; agreed, and the "building into the great beyond' that was mentioned is happening in the north, too. Your region is doing this irresponsible practice at a much faster rate, though, leading to my scolding.
Yes, because if I like to rob people's homes and stores, but you like to rob banks, I clearly stand on higher moral ground than you and can scold you for robbing banks.
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Hometown: Look, I'm frustrated with sprawl, those who support it, and those who think "job shifting" is just some fun game that doesn't drastically affect people's lives and communities negatively. I'm not bitter, and I understand those in my region would most likely act in a similar manner if they were the recipients of, say, Delta or something, but it is still wrong regardless. Honestly, they need to tax it or something, because it is just a waste.
Firstly, if you're mad at sprawl, don't be mad at the South; be mad at the government that has historically enacted policies that created sprawl all over the nation. As far as "job shifting" is concerned, be aware that the name of the game today is human capital, and businesses ultimately want to be where the people are. That's number one. Secondly, companies want to maximize profits and they can't do that being overregulated, overtaxed, and overunionized.
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Have fun in sprawl-land, and best of luck to your city and state.
And you have fun in your desolate, decaying urbanity.
Manhattan was once rich woods. So was that rather large industrial cesspool across the Hudson River, which has no small number of sprawl and pollution issues. South Florida was once swamp; Southern California, orange groves and desert. And the checkerboard layout of the Midwest was definitely imposed by man.
So...I don't see the point here.
The point is, although Manhattan's creation necessitated the destruction of some nature, it did more with less of that destruction and continues to do so. That's the point of high density development. Before, we only understood it as a grudging necessity, now we understand that it is a virtue.
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