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View Poll Results: Select all metros that you would describe as "big cities"
New York 317 85.44%
Los Angeles 295 79.51%
Chicago 305 82.21%
Dallas 238 64.15%
Philadelphia 276 74.39%
Houston 247 66.58%
Miami 229 61.73%
Atlanta 230 61.99%
Washington DC 253 68.19%
Boston 249 67.12%
Detroit 196 52.83%
Phoenix 153 41.24%
San Francisco 269 72.51%
Inland Empire, CA 22 5.93%
Seattle 205 55.26%
Minneapolis 160 43.13%
San Diego 137 36.93%
St. Louis 115 31.00%
Tampa 77 20.75%
Baltimore 138 37.20%
Denver 158 42.59%
Pittsburgh 108 29.11%
Portland 82 22.10%
Cincinnati 91 24.53%
Sacramento 54 14.56%
Cleveland 105 28.30%
Orlando 64 17.25%
San Antonio 80 21.56%
Kansas City 83 22.37%
Las Vegas 81 21.83%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 371. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-06-2010, 01:03 PM
 
Location: The City
21,301 posts, read 27,860,605 times
Reputation: 6922

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Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Not really. There is no hard fast rule since there is no one standard model for what a "city" is (in the bigger sense) today. Some cities wield more influence outside their core than other cities due to various conditions. Also, with the advent of automobiles and commuter rail, one could spend their day working/taking part in the culture of a central city...then go home to sleep 30 miles away.

Yes but how does that relate to a "city" size? Metro maybe, sure but on city size, how do people living in rural areas that commute 30 miles translate into how big a city is? Meaning the city size, not city influence...
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
7,534 posts, read 10,767,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
Yes but how does that relate to a "city" size? Metro maybe, sure but on city size, how do people living in rural areas that commute 30 miles translate into how big a city is? Meaning the city size, not city influence...
Again, you are applying the same rules to each city which doesn't really work. You could go 30 miles outside of say Boston and be in a rural area, but you could go 30 miles outside of Downtown Los Angeles and it's not rural (big generalizations here because the opposite is true for both cities).

The development outside many cities can continue unabated for a very long time, though at a lower to medium low density. When you add in the fact that there are more cities like that today than ones were most of the development is centralized, Metropolitan areas give a better picture of how "big" all cities are in the modern era, rather than just a few.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:14 PM
 
Location: The City
21,301 posts, read 27,860,605 times
Reputation: 6922
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post
Again, you are applying the same rules to each city which doesn't really work. You could go 30 miles outside of say Boston and be in a rural area, but you could go 30 miles outside of Downtown Los Angeles and it's not rural (big generalizations here because the opposite is true for both cities).

The development outside many cities can continue unabated for a very long time, though at a lower to medium low density. When you add in the fact that there are more cities like that today than ones were most of the development is centralized, Metropolitan areas give a better picture of how "big" all cities are in the modern era, rather than just a few.

But LA is accounted for as such, a huge UA population etc...

Meaning city population
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:28 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
7,534 posts, read 10,767,746 times
Reputation: 4935
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
But LA is accounted for as such, a huge UA population etc...

Meaning city population


Ok, let's frame it this way. For all of the 13 largest cities in America, there is no significant change in ranking when you consider just UA vs Metropolitan areas....

13 largest MSAs from biggest to smallest:

1. New York City
2. Los Angeles
3. Chicago
4. Dallas-Ft. Worth
5. Philadelphia
6. Houston
7. Miami
8. DC
9. Atlanta
10. Boston
11. Detroit
12. Phoenix
13. San Francisco

13 largest urban areas from biggest to smallest (based on 2000 data)

1. New York City
2. Los Angeles
3. Chicago
4. Philadelphia
5. Miami
6. Dallas
7. Boston
8. DC
9. Detroit
10. Houston.
11. Atlanta
12. San Francisco
13. Phoenix

Is it me, or do I not see a big difference here? Maybe you should just come out and say the reason why you are always stuck on UA population is because the city in bold moves up one spot on the ranking when that is the only thing considered. Whoopty doo!
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:57 PM
 
Location: The City
21,301 posts, read 27,860,605 times
Reputation: 6922
Quote:
Originally Posted by waronxmas View Post


Ok, let's frame it this way. For all of the 13 largest cities in America, there is no significant change in ranking when you consider just UA vs Metropolitan areas....

13 largest MSAs from biggest to smallest:

1. New York City
2. Los Angeles
3. Chicago
4. Dallas-Ft. Worth
5. Philadelphia
6. Houston
7. Miami
8. DC
9. Atlanta
10. Boston
11. Detroit
12. Phoenix
13. San Francisco

13 largest urban areas from biggest to smallest (based on 2000 data)

1. New York City
2. Los Angeles
3. Chicago
4. Philadelphia
5. Miami
6. Dallas
7. Boston
8. DC
9. Detroit
10. Houston.
11. Atlanta
12. San Francisco
13. Phoenix

Is it me, or do I not see a big difference here? Maybe you should just come out and say the reason why you are always stuck on UA population is because the city in bold moves up one spot on the ranking when that is the only thing considered. Whoopty doo!

It has nothing to do with any city moving up or down, actually based on 2008 rankings the city bolded is 5 in both. It is about "city" size ranking where it is my belief that UA of available census measures is the closest approximation to city size because it takes into account population and developed area versus county borders. It is the only metric that is not based on boundaries that vary widely accross the country. nothing more and nothing less...
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
12,810 posts, read 18,247,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
It has nothing to do with any city moving up or down, actually based on 2008 rankings the city bolded is 5 in both. It is about "city" size ranking where it is my belief that UA of available census measures is the closest approximation to city size because it takes into account population and developed area versus county borders. It is the only metric that is not based on boundaries that vary widely accross the country. nothing more and nothing less...
So which metric do you suggest is the best for determining a size of a city, urban area or city proper?

I personally think city proper data is virtually useless. Otherwise Austin and Jacksonville come of as larger than Atlanta and Miami. I cant really support that.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:12 PM
 
Location: ITP - City of Atlanta Proper
7,534 posts, read 10,767,746 times
Reputation: 4935
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
It has nothing to do with any city moving up or down, actually based on 2008 rankings the city bolded is 5 in both. It is about "city" size ranking where it is my belief that UA of available census measures is the closest approximation to city size because it takes into account population and developed area versus county borders. It is the only metric that is not based on boundaries that vary widely accross the country. nothing more and nothing less...
If that's the way you want to view it, that ok. However, since the same cities top the biggest UA lists and Metro lists it doesn't really make any difference. They're all big cities, just some in different ways than others.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:22 PM
 
Location: The City
21,301 posts, read 27,860,605 times
Reputation: 6922
Quote:
Originally Posted by LAnative10 View Post
So which metric do you suggest is the best for determining a size of a city, urban area or city proper?

I personally think city proper data is virtually useless. Otherwise Austin and Jacksonville come of as larger than Atlanta and Miami. I cant really support that.

I think UA is better than city limit or MSA for that purpose. Personally I do believe the flaw with UA is that it is too large because of the 1,000 ppsm cutoff. But it is better than city limit (ex. a city like Jacksonville or the other extreme Boston) or MSA which includes rural population because of county boundaries. For a MSA either a whole county is included or excluded, UA bases the population on continuously populated areas (zips) with greater than 1,000 ppsm, so at least the large city or area boundaries are not the criteria nor are rural areas included. UA is actually more a representation of Urban and Suburban than truly Urban so it really would appropriately account for older and newer developed cities on a failry equal population footing. JMHO
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
25,894 posts, read 21,554,310 times
Reputation: 10021
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly View Post
I think UA is better than city limit or MSA for that purpose. Personally I do believe the flaw with UA is that it is too large because of the 1,000 ppsm cutoff. But it is better than city limit (ex. a city like Jacksonville or the other extreme Boston) or MSA which includes rural population because of county boundaries. For a MSA either a whole county is included or excluded, UA bases the population on continuously populated areas (zips) with greater than 1,000 ppsm, so at least the large city or area boundaries are not the criteria nor are rural areas included. UA is actually more a representation of Urban and Suburban than truly Urban so it really would appropriately account for older and newer developed cities on a failry equal population footing. JMHO

I hear (or see) what you are saying, but when we're talking about cities, we're talking about jurisdictions. The District of Columbia is a jurisdiction separate and apart from Montgomery or P.G. County. As its own jurisdiction, it is small, even though the metro area is relatively large.

UA makes some sense, but my only objection to using it is that the density and character of an area typically change as soon as the city line is crossed. Entering DC from Silver Spring is a good example. Entering Philadelphia on Germantown Avenue from Montgomery County is another example. Even Westchester County looks and feels very different from the north Bronx. The differences are probably less obvious in a place like Atlanta, though, so I can see your point. It's just when I think of a place like New York as being "big," I think of the boroughs that comprise the city proper and not the various towns and counties that comprise the metro area, no matter how dense they are.
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Old 07-06-2010, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
25,894 posts, read 21,554,310 times
Reputation: 10021
When I lived in Atlanta, I found it somewhat interesting that people really didn't distinguish between the city proper and areas of Metro Atlanta that often. It was almost as if Marietta, Conyers, Smyrna, and Austell were all just different parts of the city. In the DC area, there's a BIG difference between saying you live in the District or saying you live in Rockville.
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