Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
LRT is definitely the future for rail in a city, especially in cities like Dallas and Houston. The current DART light rail has been hailed as a big success, it doesn't make any sense for plans to be changed for heavy rail.
It is great for a city. No disagreement there. But I'm talking about the entire Metro area. and Heavy rail would be idea for the DFW and Houston metro area.
If Houston wanted a subway, would they have to tear up the current LRT tracks? How would that work? I highly doubt any city will build subways. It's so expensive.
Houston can't build a subway system because it would have serious flooding problems. They do have an underground pedestrian tunnel system in downtown but even just a tunnel system has been difficult to maintain due to leaking, moisture, exc. A subway system would be an expensive nightmare for Houston. The best we can hope for is some type of heavy rail system or monorail. But, as was mentioned before, they are adding several lines to their light rail system.
Actually, technically heavy rail is interchangable with rapid transit. Subway is not a synonym for RT or heavy rail, but nearly all systems colloquially called "subways," as well as elevated lines such as Chicago's, are heavy rail/RT. Of course you're right, in everyday usage rapid transit is often used to describe LRT and HRT, despite the fact LRT isn't that "rapid." Politicians especially, (including advocates) screw up the terms very frequently. About a month ago I heard our own governor call our MARC commuter rail system heavy rail on the radio, although that may be because he was trying to dodge the question that was asked (long story).
For the sake of the discussion I suggest we only use the terms heavy and light rail to avoid confusion.
The technical definition of subway is subterranean railway. Even if you run light rail trains through an underground system, that could still be considered a subway. The only reason why we don't do that is exactly because most light rail systems don't run underground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp
Nashville is an excellent example of a low cost commuter rail startup. Their service Music City Star is the most cost efficient startup in the nation, much more so than the new lines in the West. A large part of this was politics--the lower per mile price tag would be an easier sell in largely fiscally conservative TN. The service mostly saved costs by using secondhand locomotives and passenger cars. Costs of recent commuter rail startups:
Music City Star (Nashville)- $41m 32 miles
Coaster (San Diego)- $91m 41 miles
RailRunner Exp. (Albuq., NM)- $125m 29 miles
Northstar (Minneapolis)- $320 29 miles
FrontRunner (Salt Lake City)- $360m 43 miles
Sounder (Seattle)- $860m 33 miles
I'm relatively surprised at how small capital costs were for Nashville's commuter rail system. No doubt existing rights-of-way were used, I'd presume. Is there rail sharing with freight on those tracks? In Seattle, Sound Transit had negotiate a complicated contract with BNSF since freight trains get priority over most of the day period. We also purchased a bunch of new DE locomotives and coaches from Bombardier, which would explain the higher costs.
Houston can't build a subway system because it would have serious flooding problems. They do have an underground pedestrian tunnel system in downtown but even just a tunnel system has been difficult to maintain due to leaking, moisture, exc. A subway system would be an expensive nightmare for Houston. The best we can hope for is some type of heavy rail system or monorail. But, as was mentioned before, they are adding several lines to their light rail system.
Actually, I read on HAIF that Houston could indeed build a subway system. Amsterdam has a shakier soil than Houston, I believe and they have a subway.
^^^ Do you think you can post a link for that? I would like to read it. I hope that is true. I would like to see a subway system be built in Houston. Of course, Amsterdam also doesn't have hurricanes which I assume cause some major flooding problems. Maybe not though.
It is great for a city. No disagreement there. But I'm talking about the entire Metro area. and Heavy rail would be idea for the DFW and Houston metro area.
I know Dallas and Fort Worth have the Trinity Railway Express Commuter Rail. I think the TRE is classified as heavy rail. Some other metros in Texas would be a bit small for heavy rail to serve solely within the metro. Austin and San Antonio. Both of those metros are definitely small enough so they could get away with light rail only unless they want a commuter rail between the metros.
I don't think Austin's Capital MetroRail is classified as light rail even though its perception is that. I don't know much about Austins Rail project.
It would be nice if there were some concrete specifications of what makes light rail what it is versus heavy rail because sometimes there seems to be a blurring of the lines. Most rail lines are completely obvious, but with some rails like Austins there is a weird sort of perception/technical disconnect
Either way I want more rail
Last edited by CityPerson09; 10-25-2009 at 10:59 PM..
I know Dallas and Fort Worth have the Trinity Railway Express Commuter Rail. I think the TRE is classified as heavy rail. Some other metros in Texas would be a bit small for heavy rail to serve solely within the metro. Austin and San Antonio. Both of those metros are definitely small enough so they could get away with light rail only unless they want a commuter rail between the metros.
I don't think Austin's Capital MetroRail is classified as light rail even though its perception is that. I don't know much about Austins Rail project.
It would be nice if there were some concrete specifications of what makes light rail what it is versus heavy rail because sometimes there seems to be a blurring of the lines. Most rail lines are completely obvious, but with some rails like Austins there is a weird sort of perception/technical disconnect
Either way I want more rail
Do you think there is a chance of a commuter rail connecting DFW, SA, Austin, and Houston?
The technical definition of subway is subterranean railway. Even if you run light rail trains through an underground system, that could still be considered a subway. The only reason why we don't do that is exactly because most light rail systems don't run underground.
Yep, that's basically what I was saying (i.e. that's why it's not a synonym for HR/RT).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Backstrom
I'm relatively surprised at how small capital costs were for Nashville's commuter rail system. No doubt existing rights-of-way were used, I'd presume. Is there rail sharing with freight on those tracks? In Seattle, Sound Transit had negotiate a complicated contract with BNSF since freight trains get priority over most of the day period. We also purchased a bunch of new DE locomotives and coaches from Bombardier, which would explain the higher costs.
Yeah, it uses existing CSX ROW, but is almost all single track. I don't know if CSX still even uses the track and if it does how frequently it operates. All the Western commuter rail startups listed above bought the same new Bombardier bilevels as well as new diesels. The Nashville sevice uses antiquated "gallery" cars from Chicago's Metra system that were available for literally nothing. The locomotives are ex-Amtrak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CityPerson09
I know Dallas and Fort Worth have the Trinity Railway Express Commuter Rail. I think the TRE is classified as heavy rail. Some other metros in Texas would be a bit small for heavy rail to serve solely within the metro. Austin and San Antonio. Both of those metros are definitely small enough so they could get away with light rail only unless they want a commuter rail between the metros.
I don't think Austin's Capital MetroRail is classified as light rail even though its perception is that. I don't know much about Austins Rail project.
It would be nice if there were some concrete specifications of what makes light rail what it is versus heavy rail because sometimes there seems to be a blurring of the lines. Most rail lines are completely obvious, but with some rails like Austins there is a weird sort of perception/technical disconnect
Either way I want more rail
TRE and other commuter rail systems are not heavy rail. The Capital MetroRail is a unique hybrid of commuter and light rail because of it's relatively long line and shared ROW. Two other systems are the O-Train in Ottawa and the Sprinter in San Diego (the latter which complements the Coaster commuter rail system). These are best classified as regional light rail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte
Do you think there is a chance of a commuter rail connecting DFW, SA, Austin, and Houston?
Not commuter rail since that's way too big of a distance for commuter rail to cover. It would have to be a state-funded regional intercity system, such as Amtrak California, the only such system in this country.
TRE and other commuter rail systems are not heavy rail. The Capital MetroRail is a unique hybrid of commuter and light rail because of it's relatively long line and shared ROW. Two other systems are the O-Train in Ottawa and the Sprinter in San Diego (the latter which complements the Coaster commuter rail system). These are best classified as regional light rail.
ok thanks for the clarification. The TRE and Austins new rail line have been a bit confusing for me regarding their classification
Do you think there is a chance of a commuter rail connecting DFW, SA, Austin, and Houston?
There is a commuter rail planned between Austin and San Antonio. I don't know about plans regarding the other major cities.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
