Minneapolis vs Seattle (versus, pros, food, living)

[west336]

Originally Posted by jaboyd1

I see you do not know the difference between a census tract and a city.

Here are the 5 densest census tracts in Seattle:

tract 7402 51,128 ppsm
tract 7401 41,088 ppsm
tract 8002 34,068 ppsm
tract 5301 33,763 ppsm
tract 8001 29,311 ppsm

and the 5 densest for the Twin Cities:

tract 1057 25,732 ppsm
tract 1056 21,533 ppsm
tract 1069 21,435 ppsm
tract 34202 19,652 ppsm
tract 5901 18,415 ppsm

Mapping the 2010 U.S. Census - NYTimes.com

If you read what I said about diversity I said that the Seattle AREA is more diverse than the Minneapolis AREA.

At the MSA level:

Seattle 71.9% white
Minneapolis 81.0% white

Or the CSA level:

Seattle 74.0% white
Minneapolis 82.1% white

American FactFinder

Also, an interesting comparison is the white populations of each CITY between 1980 and 2010. Seattle's increased from 392,000 to 422,000 while Minneapolis' decreased from 323,000 to 249,000. Minneapolis is still suffering the effects of white flight which some would say speaks to the health of the core.

You CLEARLY didn't read my sources. You separate density by census tract but diversity by MSA/CSA? The MSA/CSA have similar diversities, although I am also aware that Seattle has more (Asian and Hispanic) -- try using the 2010 Census information instead of AmericanFactFinder.com.

[west336]

Here are the numbers I have handy:

Minneapolis, MN CSA
1 Black or African American alone: 251,537
2 Mexican: 130,595
3 Hmong (Mong) alone: 62,319
4 Asian Indian or East Indian alone: 30,052
5 Vietnamese alone: 21,229
6 Chinese (except Taiwanese) alone: 20,667
7 Korean alone: 12,751
8 Chippewa alone: 8,867
9 Puerto Rican: 8,825
10 Filipino alone: 7,844
11 Laotian alone: 7,805
12 Ecuadorian: 7,151
13 Cambodian (Khmer) alone: 6,257
14 Salvadoran: 5,994
Total Population: 3,615,902


Seattle, WA CSA
1 Mexican: 266,124
2 Black or African American alone: 208,518
3 Filipino alone: 81,537
4 Chinese (except Taiwanese) alone: 77,031
5 Vietnamese alone: 58,452
6 Korean alone: 56,160
7 Asian Indian or East Indian alone: 54,320
8 Japanese alone: 29,908
9 Puerto Rican: 20,364
10 Spaniard or Spanish: 18,332
11 Cambodian (Khmer) alone: 17,101
12 Samoan alone: 12,139
13 Puget Sound Salish alone: 10,327
14 Salvadoran: 8,709
15 Guamanian or Chamorro (Chamoru) alone: 8,132
16 Laotian alone: 7,697
17 Guatemalan: 6,803
18 Taiwanese alone: 6,023
19 Thai alone: 5,141
20 Cuban: 4,804
21 Colombian: 4,401
22 Peruvian: 4,392
23 Native Hawaiian (Kānaka Maoli) alone: 4,263
Total Population: 4,199,312


I have to say though, that since St. Cloud is part of the CSA but not the MSA, it sort of skews the percentages. If you use MSA data, the 250K people included in the CSA that is 95%+ white would be excluded and the MSA better represents the metro area (I feel that way for just about every U.S. city). If there is something like that for Seattle (CSA to MSA discrepancies) then feel free to add that info.

I know MSP and SEA (and ATL) have both been moderate immigrant destinations the past decade or so, and these numbers will likely grow faster than the U.S. average for the foreseeable future.

[jaboyd1]

Originally Posted by west336

You CLEARLY didn't read my sources. You separate density by census tract but diversity by MSA/CSA? The MSA/CSA have similar diversities, although I am also aware that Seattle has more (Asian and Hispanic) -- try using the 2010 Census information instead of AmericanFactFinder.com.

Once again, you have misinterpreted (or in this case have failed to read my sources apparently) in my last post. If you follow that factfinder link you'll see that it takes you to factfinder2 which is where the data for census 2000 and census 2010 is located.

Also, addressing your next post, if you had bothered to read the data I posted, you'd see that the MSA to CSA jump actually decreases Seattle's minority population more than it does Minneapolis area's (2.1% vs 1.1%). At the MSA level, Seattle's minority population is 9.1% higher than MSP's. Looking at the data you posted above shows that MSP's minority population is less diverse itself. According to your data MSP has 3 minority groups above 50,000 while the Seattle area has 7 groups above 50,000 people.

I posted that the CORE of Seattle is much denser than the cores of either Minneapolis or St Paul and that the Seattle AREA is more diverse than the MSP area. Nothing you have posted so far has disproved this.

[Psykomonkee]

This is an easy poll for me because I actually feel an extreme way for both.

I LOVE Seattle.
I HATE Minneapolis.

I guess the city itself is cool, but everytime I've ever been to Minneapolis (only 3 times) it has been ridiculously bone-chilling cold! Too cold to enjoy anything outside of my hotel room!

[ironcouger]

Downtown Seattle is much more dense and urban than Minneapolis. Example Seattle has 42million sq ft office space and 260,000 workers downtown . Minneapolis has 24million sq ft and 160,000 workers. Downtown Seattle has 13,000 hotel rooms , Minneapolis has 6,000. Minneapolis list 3.1 million sq ft of retail space, Seattle has 6.2 million sq ft. Seattle has 3 new museums to open next year . Three new department stores are under construction downtown. Seattle is close to 3 national parks, ocean beachs and mts.

[Urban_Hippy]

Originally Posted by ironcouger

Downtown Seattle is much more dense and urban than Minneapolis. Example Seattle has 42million sq ft office space and 260,000 workers downtown . Minneapolis has 24million sq ft and 160,000 workers. Downtown Seattle has 13,000 hotel rooms , Minneapolis has 6,000. Minneapolis list 3.1 million sq ft of retail space, Seattle has 6.2 million sq ft. Seattle has 3 new museums to open next year . Three new department stores are under construction downtown. Seattle is close to 3 national parks, ocean beachs and mts.

Where did you get the 6.2 million square feet retail from. The numbers I've seen (from the Downtown Seattle Association, which if anything would exaggerate) say 5.1 million square feet IIRC. And that's not just downtown proper, that's all the way north to Lake Union, and east to Broadway or so.

The same thing goes for the sq ft office space and office worker numbers you gave. That's not just downtown, that's to Lake Union and Capitol Hill as well.

What are the three new dept. stores under construction? The only two I know of are Target and JC Penney, and they aren't even new construction. They are just taking over already-built space. And the JC Penny will only be 60k square feet, about 30-50% bigger than a Best Buy, so it's more like a mini-dept. store really, as opposed to a full-size dept. store.

[ironcouger]

Originally Posted by Urban_Hippy

Where did you get the 6.2 million square feet retail from. The numbers I've seen (from the Downtown Seattle Association, which if anything would exaggerate) say 5.1 million square feet IIRC. And that's not just downtown proper, that's all the way north to Lake Union, and east to Broadway or so.

The same thing goes for the sq ft office space and office worker numbers you gave. That's not just downtown, that's to Lake Union and Capitol Hill as well.

What are the three new dept. stores under construction? The only two I know of are Target and JC Penney, and they aren't even new construction. They are just taking over already-built space. And the JC Penny will only be 60k square feet, about 30-50% bigger than a Best Buy, so it's more like a mini-dept. store really, as opposed to a full-size dept. store.

There also building a new nordstroms rack in the bottom floor off westlake . Its going to be the largest and the flagship Nordstrom Rack. Wow and redeveloping office buildings to retail space dont count as new construction ? The building have to be gutted and rebuilt for the stores. Why would you care if the department store is large format or small and urban nobody said it was a flagship or a large JC Penneys. Seattle has plenty of large flagship stores Nordstroms largest one in the chain 400,000 sq ft Macys 300,000 sq ft R.E.I flagship store 200,000 sq ft . My pointe was just Seattle had more retail than Minneapolis so dont matter how much just more.

[skihikeclimb]

Originally Posted by jaboyd1

I posted that the CORE of Seattle is much denser than the cores of either Minneapolis or St Paul and that the Seattle AREA is more diverse than the MSP area. Nothing you have posted so far has disproved this.

As someone who lived in both cities I totally agree with you! Spot on... Downtown Seattle is more lively in the summers than downtown Minneapolis. Sometimes downtown Minneapolis seems like a ghost town compared to Seattle. Seattle has many awesome flag ship stores downtown I.E. Nordstrom, REI, Mountain Hardware etc... You go to the bookstore in downtown Minneapolis and it is dead. In Seattle you go to Barnes and Nobles and everyone is reading and drinking coffee. The atmosphere of the two cities is so different.

The Bill Gates Foundation has its headquarters near downtown and Amazon just moved its headquarters to downtown Seattle and the south lake union area is bustling with activity during the work week. Seattle is far and above Minneapolis on so many levels.

Furthermore the Asian influence in the city of Seattle is noticeable in the culture. Minneapolis lacks in the diversity department compared to Seattle. The feel of being next to Puget Sound, the Olympic Mountains and Cascades in the distance really add a unique flavor to the city.

[Urban_Hippy]

Originally Posted by ironcouger

There also building a new nordstroms rack in the bottom floor off westlake

Nordstrom Rack is not a dept. store. That's like calling a Sears catalogue store a dept. store. Nordstrom Rack is a clothing store. And if it's only going to take up part of one floor of Westlake, then it will be even smaller than the JC Penney.

Its going to be the largest and the flagship Nordstrom Rack. Wow and redeveloping office buildings to retail space dont count as new construction ?

No. That's called buildout/leasehold improvements. New construction means new buildings that weren't there previously. They're just changing how existing space is being used.

The building have to be gutted and rebuilt for the stores. Why would you care if the department store is large format or small

I don't care. But to just come out and say they're building three new dept. stores, when the LARGEST of those three is 100k square feet is misleading. To me "dept. store" brings images of large stores. To call a Nordstrom Rack a "department store" is like calling a Best Buy Mobile a "big box electronic store" just because it has the Best Buy name.

Edit: On top of everything I just said, the Nordstrom Rack is merely a relocation, not a brand new store. It's just moving a few hundred feet down Pine Street.

[Mighty Bleistift]

Originally Posted by Mighty Bleistift

I'll explain in greater detail (someone prior to you said they were interested to hear it). It's LONG, apologies in advance!

I’m currently on an 11-hour flight. I’m bored, I have internet, and I have a lot of time on my hands. That’s a deadly combination. I now present my thesis...

I wanted to add my 2000 cents because, like others here, I have also lived in both cities. I've also lived in Portland, New York City, Miami, Orlando, San Francisco, Telluride, Munich, Germany, and Reno/Lake Tahoe (where I was born and raised). I currently live in Pasadena, CA, but I still work in Seattle ~3 months per year, mostly in Belltown and a little in Kenmore (at Bastyr University). I lived in MPLS in 2009 and still work there several times a year as well. When I lived in Seattle, I was in Magnolia, and I was in Kenwood in MPLS.

Going by the specific criteria, I will explain why each place is better for me. I'm not an "urban planner" and I'm not a stat geek. I don't give a hoot about density or other meaningless stats. This is what I've experienced and what’s resonated with me and my family and with the way we live our lives. Starting with the OP's criteria:

-Location:

I travel a lot for my work, and end up spending most of my work time in New York, LA, and London. This is still the jet age - anything further than about a 6-hour drive and I'm on a plane, like now. Minneapolis' central location makes it much easier for me to get to both coasts and Europe rather quickly. Plus, distance to MSP from Kenwood is much closer than the distance from Magnolia to Sea-Tac, and I don’t have to go through downtown to get there.
Minneapolis

-Built Environment:

I haven't been around here long enough to know what this really means, but if it's what I think it is (urban planning, parks, etc), then I'd have to say it's a tossup, or maybe a tiny edge to Seattle. That said, Minneapolis and the first ring suburbs have an astounding array of usable park space - more than I've ever seen in another major US city (Portland included). For the stat geeks, parks account for 16.6% of city land, which I believe is more than Seattle. Add park space in first-ring ‘burbs and it goes WAY up. Also, Minneapolis has done a much better job of building public walkways and bikeways that interconnect the entire city.

Also, FWIW, Minneapolis has one of the best public wifi systems in the US, and has more public hotspots than Seattle (117 vs 110 at last count).
Tossup

-Transportation Options:

I don't utilize public transportation nearly as much as I should, so I can't comment as others would. As a car and bike commuter, Minneapolis winds hands down. For one, Bicycling Magazine ranks MPLS the top cycling city in the country (Seattle 4th). Most of the many people I know who bicycle-commute in the Twin Cities do so year-round. And Twin Cities freeways, at least to me, seem to be less congested and more plentiful than freeways in Seattle. They also go to the places where I need to go, which isn't always the case for me in Seattle (freeway from Magnolia to Kenmore?).

Incidentally, The Daily Beast’s annual “75 Worst Commutes” puts Seattle with the 7th-worst commute, MPLS the 17th-worst commute.
Minneapolis

-Access to Nature and Associated Sports Activities:

This is a biggie for me, and I knew I’d touch a nerve with this one.

I mentioned that I grew up in Lake Tahoe (well, not in Lake Tahoe). Skiing was, and still is, a huge part of my life. I earned a spot on the 1988 US Development Team (didn’t get to go to Calgary, unfortunately), and used to get in over 100 ski days a year. I still get in 30-40 days per year at 43 years old, in large part because I'm fortunate to own ski property in Colorado. No question, Seattle's access to Whistler gives it a huge edge in the ski department. But, how many of you knew that the best alpine skier the US has ever produced, Lindsey Vonn, was born and raised in Minneapolis and trained at Buck Hill in Minnesota? And she's not the only one! No I'm not saying that skiing in and around MPLS is better than skiing in and around Seattle (thought technically, there is no skiing in Seattle). I'm saying that, as someone who considers skiing to be his number one physical activity, I still rate MPLS higher than Seattle. I'll explain later.

Minnesota has more miles of shoreline than California, Hawaii and Florida combined. It has much more water area than WA, and "it's not close" (to quote resident homer Bill Loney). Minnesota has 2.5 million acres of deep-water lakes, 11 million acres of wetlands, and over 2k miles of river. All of this blows Washington out of the "water". Most of you Seattle-wonks tout kayaking like it's exclusive to Seattle. I kayaked the San Juans in late August and did it regularly when I lived there. It's beautiful. I’ve also kayaked the boundary waters, which is just as beautiful. It’s possible to kayak the boundary waters for two weeks without seeing another soul. I prefer lake kayaking to ocean kayaking for the simple reason that it's easier and I can do it longer.

Minneapolis has more golfers per capita than any major city in the country. I don't play golf very much, but what this does mean is that there are a ton of golf courses, and in the winter, many of those golf courses turn into sledding and cross-country skiing parks. In fact, the Twin Cities area has over 250km of designated Nordic ski trails (with thousands more in the rest of the state)! The City of Minneapolis even has state-of-the art snowmaking equipment because demand is so high on snowless winter days. The city even runs beginning ski, snowboard and ice-skating classes in city limits. Does that happen in Seattle? I'd actually argue that winters in the Twin Cities are better than the summers! Yes, I’ve been sliding at Snoqualmie, which is nice, but it’s what, 50 miles away? And while we are on the subject of Nordic, how many ski jumps does Seattle have in town?

The NFL means nothing to me. I like to go to the occasional NBA game, and I go to several MLB games per year. Target Field is the best MLB park in the country, according to ESPN. Of the 7600 votes, Target field got 2500, one-third of ALL votes! Safeco got 176 votes and ranks 11th overall. I've personally been to both fields, and Target blows Safeco out of the water in every aspect (other than the depth in the power alleys, but that's another story). The only thing I wish is that MPLS supported soccer a little better and had a pro soccer team. Seattle definitely has it over MSP there. But, Seattle has no NBA, though the way the Twolves play, some say MSP doesn't have NBA either. MSP could support two NHL teams, if that’s your bag.

What they say about fishing in MN is no joke. The first fish my then-7-year-old son ever caught was a 23-pound walleye, after only having his line in the water for 15 minutes. Believe me when I say that we are no experts when it comes to fishing. My son enjoyed it so much, we went ice-fishing on Mille Lacs last winter - along with 6,000 other people. He can’t wait to try hockey on one of those lakes this winter. Add to that, what states have the most registered boats in the US? FL, MI, CA, and MN. What state has the most boats per capita? MN. Water skiing is massive in MN.

Snowmobiling trails in MN: 20,000 miles. Washington: 3,000 miles.

As I said, skiing is sport one for me, and Seattle's 4-hour drive to Whistler is huge. HOWEVER, as good as Whistler-Blackcomb is, it is very crowded every day of the season (I usually ski mid-week to avoid crowds). And, that 4-hour drive assumes no backups at Blaine or traffic in Vancouver. Yeah, right. Factoring that, it takes me less time, door to door, to fly from MSP to DEN and then drive to my place in Breckenridge than it takes to drive from Magnolia to Whistler. Or, I could fly directly to EGE, and with the same-day lift tickets Vail offers with boarding passes, I’d be skiing Blue Sky Basin for free before someone from Seattle even got past Vancouver. Heck, with the hour gained with the time change, I’m actually skiing Vail before noon! Is flying too expensive or not spontaneous enough? I’ve often found last-minute fares from MSP to DEN for $99. So get this: in some cases, it's actually quicker and cheaper to ski Vail from Minneapolis than it is to ski Whistler from Seattle. I've done it!

For those who will mention Grouse, Cypress, or the closer ski areas in WA: have you skied them? They kinda suck in comparison, longer ski season or not. And yes, those in Seattle can also fly to DEN, but the flight is 40 minutes longer and you lose an hour with the time change. SLC is closer, but you still lose an hour with the change.

I realize I'm repeating myself here, but Seattle-wonks often point to skiing, climbing, hiking and kayaking opportunities in Seattle, as though those activities are exclusive to Seattle. Or as though those are the only outdoor activities that exist. There is a lot more to “outdoor activity” than just that. Different strokes.. Oh, and see what I have to say about REI below..

Hold on a minute. Trails.com says the Seattle area has about 1000 designated hiking trails. MPLS area only has about 400. That settles it. Seattle wins!
Minneapolis

-Cultural Amenities:

Another subject that is near and dear to my heart, and my wallet. I make my living in arts and entertainment. I’ve spent 22 years in the entertainment industry and have crossed all genres, having worked with major artists from all over the world (including both cities in question), and also having recorded the Seattle Symphony on numerous occasions.

Musical legacy is a tossup, with a slight edge to Seattle, depending on your tastes. It's been hashed to death what each city has given us. If I had to pick one “major” from each city, it would be Prince and either Nirvana or Pearl Jam. In other words, call it a draw. What nobody ever mentions, however, is that one of grunge's major influences was The Replacements - a Minneapolis band.

Live music: Seattle has more shows, but more does not equal better. Want a little test? Download an app called "iConcertCal" and have it scan your music library. It will tell you when artists in your library are playing in cities all around the country. I think you'll find that MSP gets just as many quality shows as Seattle does. I ran a search of just the songs on my iPhone, and 14 of my bands have shows in MSP in the next 3 months, while 15 have shows in Seattle. No big deal. (Foster the People with Cults Oct 6 FTW - also in Seattle Oct 9).

Classical, Opera, Ballet: As I said, I record the Seattle Symphony often. They are good. Minneapolis is way better, and "it's not close". Just take a look at past musical directors of the Minnesota Orchestra. Ormandy, Marriner, Dorati.. It's ridiculous. Midwest symphonies are traditionally excellent - Chicago and Cleveland are world-renowned. Minneapolis is no exception, and is better funded than Seattle as well. Minnesota Orch has on operating budget of over $30 million, where Seattle's is $24 million. Minnesota's endowment is 3 x that of Seattle's ($90mil vs $33mil). Another thing to consider - Seattle Symphony has to pull musicians from Vancouver and Portland to fill sections, while Minneapolis has more than enough in town to fill its sections.

In 2010, The New Yorker called the Minnesota Orchestra the "Best Orchestra in the World" after it’s performances at Carnegie Hall. Yes, that Carnegie Hall.

Seattle's Ballet (PNBC) is better, or at least more respected than Minneapolis'. Opera is a tossup, though midwest opera tends to be very, very good. For the 3 of you who still attend the opera, that is.

Theater: anyone who says theater is better in Seattle isn't paying attention. Minneapolis trounces it, and it’s “not close” (thanks again, Loney).

Zoo: Travel and Leisure rates the Minnesota Zoo one of the 10 best in the country. I looked at several online travel and education sites, and none of them rated any Seattle-area zoo in the top 10 nation-wide, while several rated the Minnesota Zoo in the top 10, some even in the top 5.

Art and Museums: Several here have said Seattle is way better, and I just don't get that. Museumlink lists the same number of major museums in each city, though their list fails to include the Walker in Minneapolis. Big ups to Seattle for the Museum of Flight and the EMP (even though the EMP is good for about one visit and then it's a bore). The largest sculpture garden in the country is in Minneapolis.
Minneapolis

-Metro Area as a Whole:

This is the most subjective category and, in my opinion, allows the most room to mention what’s really important to me and my family in a city. YMMV, though I suspect that are a lot of people out there who value many of the same things we value.

-Schools-

Bellevue, Mercer Island, Issaquah.. all have awesome schools. I looked very closely at MI schools when I lived in Seattle and was very impressed. Minnetonka, Wayzata, Edina, Eden Prairie, 196, according to just about every metric you can dig up, are better.

-Food (and water)-

I’m not going to try and argue that Minneapolis has better food than Seattle. But, Seattle isn’t miles ahead of Minneapolis, either. What Minneapolis does lack, in my opinion, is Tom Douglas-style eateries. Lola, Serious Pie, etc are some of my favorite places to eat anywhere (I stay at Hotel Andra when I return to Seattle, so Lola is like my second breakfast table - donuts anyone?). Minneapolis, for high end dining, is still kinda stuck in the French-is-best mindset.

That said, which city has more James Beard Award winners? It’s a tie with 5 each. Which city has been featured more times on Diners, Drive-Ins and Dive’s? Minneapolis, 15 times to 7. Seattle has Macrina, but Minneapolis has Rustica - both were just featured in Bon Appetite’s “Top 10 Bakeries in America”. Seattle has Molly Moon, Minneapolis has Pumphouse (both featured in Food and Wine’s top 10 ice cream in America, though I prefer Sebastian Joe’s in MPLS to all of them). Seattle has Serious Pie, Minneapolis has Pizza Luce. Seattle has Red Mill, Minneapolis has Nook and 5-8 and Matt’s. Minneapolis has Al’s Breakfast, and Seattle has, um.

(FWIW, neither city can compete with Portland, which is the 3rd-best restaurant city in the country as far as I’m concerned, behind only NYC and SF.)

The point is, the food gap between MPLS and Seattle is not nearly as wide as some around here would have you believe. Some will say that Seattle gets fresher produce, which may be true, but I just read an article on Epicurious that rated the top Farm-to-Table restaurants in the country. Know how many were in WA? None. MN had one (in Duluth, even).

Even the coffee gap isn’t nearly as wide as it used to be. I’d put Dogwood and Bull Run coffee up against anything from Vivace, Stumptown (pre-Vitamin Water), Gorilla, Blue Bottle, or Intelligentsia.

On drinking water - Minneapolis has some of the cleanest water in the country. EWG rates Minneapolis as 10th-best in the nation of cities over 250k in population. Seattle is 25th. Saint Paul is also ahead of Seattle.

-Downtown-

People like skihikeclimb keep going on about the “density” of the two respective downtown areas, and how “lively” or “dead” each downtown is. Respectfully, I say, “so what?”. Minneapolis is not a “downtown” city. Take a walk through Uptown, or 50th & France, or around Calhoun, or Dinkytown, or any number of areas in the city. Uptown by itself is often much more lively than downtown Seattle, and you’re not getting accosted by tweakers at every block. Complaining about Minneapolis not having a bustling downtown is like complaining about Manhattan not having a bustling downtown (specifically referring to the are below Canal Street, that is).

At the end of the day, does it really matter? People get out in both cities. They do things. They walk, they shop, and they mingle. Yeah, skihikeclimb, there is an awesome REI Flagship Store in downtown Seattle. Great, you win! But that store is not really all that walkable, and what you DON’T mention is that the Seattle REI Flagship Store is what REI refers to as a “Concept (http://www.onlinesports.com/sportstrust/sports33.html - broken link)” store. Concept stores are 3-4 times larger than normal stores and feature such amenities as indoor trails, creeks, waterfalls, larger-than-normal climbing walls, etc. There are only two REI “Concept” stores in the US. Where is the other one? Take a wild guess.

-Cost of Living and Housing-

Does this really need to be debated? I'm sure someone will pull up some index that shows COL in the two cities is comparable. The fact on the ground is this: they aren't. Minneapolis is a much cheaper city to live in.

-Weather-

I’d rather be cold and dry than chilly and wet, and I’d rather it be cold and sunny than chilly and cloudy. It’s really as simple as that. And once again, that's me.

-People-

This is the number one reason why I would never live in Seattle or Portland again full-time. Of course, there are wonderful people in Seattle. But, at the risk of generalizing, people in and from Seattle can be downright insufferable. It’s people like Bill Loney, skihikeclimb, and the rest of the know-it-all, “Too Cool for School” crowd in Seattle that really turn me off to the place. Furthermore, there is a real, palpable hatred in both cities towards Californians and All Things CA, which transcends itself into a generally exceptionalistic, provincial, judgmental and uptight view of the rest of the world that exists beyond their city limits. It goes way beyond simple civic pride - it's almost like a weird form of Tourette's. Even though Seattleites like to claim that they are more enlightened, hip, outdoorsy and tolerant than everyone else, it simply isn’t so.

Also, the homeless/tweaker problem is getting much worse in Seattle than I remember. Just last week, I was walking with my son near the Top Pot in Belltown, and as we passed a homeless/tweaker type, she yelled to my son that he was going to hell, ostensibly because I wouldn’t give her any money. He’s 9! This freaked him out big-time. Unfortunately, large parts of Seattle (and more so Portland) are like this now. Did I mention Seattle has a drug problem that’s not matched in MPLS? I guess that’s one thing about the MSP cold - as someone so eloquently said in another thread here in these forums, it keeps the riff-raff out!

--

Contrary to how many of the Seattle-wonks present their cases, never once have I said that Seattle is an awful place, or made generalized proclamations like I "hate" Seattle, as Psykomonkee did. It isn’t, and I don't. It’s just that Seattle doesn’t hold a monopoly on many of the things you people seem to think that it does. Not by a longshot. Hey, cool with me. MPLS will still be cool long after Seattle and its inhabitant-sheep have jumped the shark.