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Yes. Older neighborhoods still have that grid connectivity instead of winding roads ending in cul-de-sacs like this:
Lack of maintenance is one thing, and so are routine repairs due to age. But you cannot compare that to cheaply built suburban homes. Do you honestly think over the long run and all things equal, this
Be sure to note that I'm not arguing with you...but I've come to realize recently that suburbs and suburban neighborhoods are certainly not all or even mostly one way or another. Many older neighborhoods are disconnected and include cul-de-sacs/dead ends - remember suburbanization in the U.S. started full force in the 1950s. Many newer neighborhoods are on grids and connect very well with the existing community.
I'm pretty sure that the second home depicted has been renovated. It's really hard to compare two homes that are so completely different, and we really don't know how newly built homes today will age - they might surprise us. The style of the second home is much more appealing to me and has better landscaping, but I can't say for sure that the first home is built cheaply - it just looks less interesting, and that makes it look cheap to me.
I'm curious...how do you know that a newly built home is also built cheaply? I've heard that comment about newer suburban homes, but I don't think that the average person can actually tell by looking at it.
If you'd read the WHOLE thread you'd have seen it was already posted among other sources as well; taken from New Geography, their source listed with Census Bureau and their data:
LOL, did you even read or interpret the table from your link? Phoenix is listed as the 15th (10th from link I posted) most dense by weighted census tracts on this calculation!
So the "obscure" article that posted a link for isn't much different or off much despite the 2000 information; which by the way the Austin Contrarian used to calculate his/her metric. Also the only way we will have updated info for this 2000 census data is after the 2010 census.
However, estimates from recent years (including 2008 when the article I posted was written) states that the city of Phoenix has seen density increase and that the gap between Phoenix and Portland has widened since Phoenix has gained tremendous population while growing mostly in the central city...how "obscure" is that.
Be sure to note that I'm not arguing with you...but I've come to realize recently that suburbs and suburban neighborhoods are certainly not all or even mostly one way or another. Many older neighborhoods are disconnected and include cul-de-sacs/dead ends - remember suburbanization in the U.S. started full force in the 1950s. Many newer neighborhoods are on grids and connect very well with the existing community.
The issue is one of degree. Newer suburban neighborhoods are much more likely to have those winding cul-de-sacs and typically have a minimal amount of entrances/exits. Even for the older suburban neighborhoods that do have some dead-ends, they are more or less fashioned with a grid-like system in place. This can be seen in this aerial of the Cotswold neighborhood here in Charlotte which is a typical 50's/60's area suburb. As far as newer suburban/exurban neighborhoods connecting with existing communities, that's pretty much the exception (particularly with New Urbanist communities) and not the norm. As a matter of fact, many of these neighborhoods are pure greenfield communities and have no existing neighborhoods around them to connect to.
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I'm pretty sure that the second home depicted has been renovated. It's really hard to compare two homes that are so completely different, and we really don't know how newly built homes today will age - they might surprise us. The style of the second home is much more appealing to me and has better landscaping, but I can't say for sure that the first home is built cheaply - it just looks less interesting, and that makes it look cheap to me.
I'm curious...how do you know that a newly built home is also built cheaply? I've heard that comment about newer suburban homes, but I don't think that the average person can actually tell by looking at it.
There are good, quality suburban homes out there that are new. This one is clearly not among them and it's much more reflective of what you tend to see in newer suburban/exurban neighborhoods. It's your standard cookie-cutter suburban house. And of course the cheap vinyl siding gives it away also. There's a reason why the most desirable neighborhoods in urban areas aren't full of houses with that material used as siding. Having been in quite a few of these sorts of houses, it's just obvious that they are cheaply built. Flimsy walls, flimsy finishes, cheap siding, etc. And I've also been in older bungalow/ranch homes that have not had extensive renovations and the difference in quality is quite stark. Sturdy walls, sturdy floors, durable materials, etc. It's just self-evident. There's plenty of material out there that talks about the cheap suburban McMansions and starter homes. The phenomenon has been thoroughly documented.
Many subdivisions can look very cookie cutter....when they are brand new. And while poorly built homes are definately out there, it really depends from builder to builder. What do I care if an overpriced, drafty old barn from the 1940s is in an established neighborhood on a grid? The new home, if chosen knowledgably, is often a better floorplan and more energy efficient from the start.
The issue is one of degree. Newer suburban neighborhoods are much more likely to have those winding cul-de-sacs and typically have a minimal amount of entrances/exits. Even for the older suburban neighborhoods that do have some dead-ends, they are more or less fashioned with a grid-like system in place. This can be seen in this aerial of the Cotswold neighborhood here in Charlotte which is a typical 50's/60's area suburb. As far as newer suburban/exurban neighborhoods connecting with existing communities, that's pretty much the exception (particularly with New Urbanist communities) and not the norm. As a matter of fact, many of these neighborhoods are pure greenfield communities and have no existing neighborhoods around them to connect to.
There are good, quality suburban homes out there that are new. This one is clearly not among them and it's much more reflective of what you tend to see in newer suburban/exurban neighborhoods. It's your standard cookie-cutter suburban house. And of course the cheap vinyl siding gives it away also. There's a reason why the most desirable neighborhoods in urban areas aren't full of houses with that material used as siding. Having been in quite a few of these sorts of houses, it's just obvious that they are cheaply built. Flimsy walls, flimsy finishes, cheap siding, etc. And I've also been in older bungalow/ranch homes that have not had extensive renovations and the difference in quality is quite stark. Sturdy walls, sturdy floors, durable materials, etc. It's just self-evident. There's plenty of material out there that talks about the cheap suburban McMansions and starter homes. The phenomenon has been thoroughly documented.
I just think you're generalizing an awful lot about suburbs and suburban homes. We all have to go by what we read about suburbs - because most of us don't actually visit them to know these things about them. How do you know that most suburbs are disconnected or that most tract homes are cheaply built? I'm just not so sure about believing everything that I read or hear anymore.
I just think you're generalizing an awful lot about suburbs and suburban homes. We all have to go by what we read about suburbs - because most of us don't actually visit them to know these things about them. How do you know that most suburbs are disconnected or that most tract homes are cheaply built? I'm just not so sure about believing everything that I read or hear anymore.
Maybe you haven't visited many of them, but I have. I have several friends, family members, former classmates, associates, etc. that have bought into these new subdivisions and I see them out here all the time and what's going on in Charlotte isn't so different than what's going on in the rest of the country (I've seen a ton of them in Atlanta also). If you don't agree about the quality of construction, you've at least got to agree that most of these new suburban/exurban neighborhoods on the fringes lack connectivity, weren't built with transit use in mind, are inefficient, etc.
I just think you're generalizing an awful lot about suburbs and suburban homes. We all have to go by what we read about suburbs - because most of us don't actually visit them to know these things about them. How do you know that most suburbs are disconnected or that most tract homes are cheaply built? I'm just not so sure about believing everything that I read or hear anymore.
Suburbs usually tend to be disconnected; especially the ones in the southern and northern regions. I believe the West, Midwest and Texas suburbs are very cookie-cutter but the houses in neighborhoods are close enough to where you can create a tight-knit neighborhood.
I remember going to North Carolina and Virginia. Houses were very spaced apart and seemed to discourage any type of community within the the suburbs.
I remember going to North Carolina and Virginia. Houses were very spaced apart and seemed to discourage any type of community within the the suburbs.
Now I think that this may be one of the falsehoods about the suburbs. I do think that they can be as tight-knight as urban neighborhoods, especially since suburban residents are more or less alike demographically, particularly in terms of class.
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