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No comparison; downtown Phoenix. While there are a couple streets here and there in Tucson, mainly 4th Ave and Sacramento having a smallish downtown as well, downtown Phoenix has 14,000 residents, an Arts District along Roosevelt Row, a CBD (central business district), an arena, stadium, amazing convention center, new high-rises with shopping, nightclubs, grocery stores, a downtown Public Market/Farmers Market, light rail, free downtown DASH bus service, and the list goes on.
There is nothing comparable in Tucson or Sac-town. Tempe isn't really walkable "downtown" as that area is north of Town Lake, but its HUGE university district, Mill District, Maple/Ash, and Town Lake districts all mesh into one HUGE urban zone that makes it extremely walkable. Scottsdale also has a MUCH larger Old Town/Downtown area compared to Sacramento's. There are more residents in downtown Scottsdale alone and the urban districts in Tempe alone than Sacramento.
Downtown Sacramento has 17,000 residents, a pedestrian mall (K-Street), a waterfront boardwalk, Old Sacramento historical district, a huge capitol park, numerous plazas and theatres, etc.--but most importantly it is built on a much more human and walkable scale than Phoenix.
I know its not bigger in area than DT Phoenix, but the question was about pedestrian friendliness.
As for your claims about about DT Scotsdale and Tempe's urban areas having more residents than Sacramento, that's just flat out false. Sacramento has 470,000 people--thats more than Tempe and Scottsdales pop. combined (around 430,000). Neither city has a walkable area as big as downtown Sac.
Look at this walkscore map, notice how the DT area in Sac is all green:
Like I said, Sac pales in comparison to many, many cities in terms of downtown pedestrian friendliness, but its still better than any city in AZ (and Ive been to all the big ones)
Last edited by AcroJimmy2; 02-02-2010 at 03:14 AM..
No comparison; downtown Phoenix. While there are a couple streets here and there in Tucson, mainly 4th Ave and Sacramento having a smallish downtown as well, downtown Phoenix has 14,000 residents, an Arts District along Roosevelt Row, a CBD (central business district), an arena, stadium, amazing convention center, new high-rises with shopping, nightclubs, grocery stores, a downtown Public Market/Farmers Market, light rail, free downtown DASH bus service, and the list goes on.
There is nothing comparable in Tucson or Sac-town. Tempe isn't really walkable "downtown" as that area is north of Town Lake, but its HUGE university district, Mill District, Maple/Ash, and Town Lake districts all mesh into one HUGE urban zone that makes it extremely walkable. Scottsdale also has a MUCH larger Old Town/Downtown area compared to Sacramento's. There are more residents in downtown Scottsdale alone and the urban districts in Tempe alone than Sacramento.
We had this argument weeks ago.
Regardless of how many people live in downtown Phoenix, or the fact that there is a larger convention center/stadium/etc in downtown PHX, Tucson has more nightclubs/cafes/restaurants that bring more people to its downtown on a regular basis between downtown/4th ave/university than Phoenix...and that's before our modern streetcar is built.
I disagree that Tucson's downtown is better than Sacramento's in terms of pedestrian friendliness. I lived in tucson for 5 years. It has some decent pedestrian areas around the campus and 4th avenue. But downtown as a whole is tiny and seriously lacks amenities.
Sacramento, while the rest of the city is a major sprawl, actually has a semi-decent size downtown, and much of it is very walkable, with distinct areas and corner markets, bars etc.
I would put Sacramento's downtown above Tempe and Scottsdale's as well. Again, it's significantly bigger and has a lot more areas to explore.
Just to be clear, I'm usually not much of an advocate for Sacramento, but as you said we are comparing the lesser of evils, and Sacramento's downtown offers much more than most people think.
I can't comment on Sacramento's downtown pedestrian friendliness because I've never been to Sacramento (it hasn't been on my list); however, I do know that it is more dense than many people give it credit for being. Having said that, I'm not sure when you last lived/visited Tucson, but Congress St. has had a revival of sorts in the last year and it is continuing.
Regardless of how many people live in downtown Phoenix, or the fact that there is a larger convention center/stadium/etc in downtown PHX, Tucson has more nightclubs/cafes/restaurants that bring more people to its downtown on a regular basis between downtown/4th ave/university than Phoenix...and that's before our modern streetcar is built.
LOL, yes we did and many of those clubs you listed weren't downtown and they looked like something from Benson, Arizona! LOL A Maloney's is not a club but a restaurant/bar that has HUGE parking lots surrounding the flat, one story structure. This is the rule of the game for Tucson's "clubs"/cafes/restaurants! LOL, you do realized 200,000 people come to 1 square mile ALONE in downtown Phoenix! Please, who are you trying to kid!
Downtown Sacramento has 17,000 residents, a pedestrian mall (K-Street), a waterfront boardwalk, Old Sacramento historical district, a huge capitol park, numerous plazas and theatres, etc.--but most importantly it is built on a much more human and walkable scale than Phoenix.
There is one thing I missed in the calculations of the downtown comparisons, downtown Sacramento is considered a bigger area than its CBD (central business district) and is a few square miles, unlike Phoenix' small, compact downtown with 14,000 residents. Like the argument with AZLiam I had before, if we include an area comparable to downtown Sac in Phoenix, we are talking more than 35,000 people. http://www.cityofsacramento.org/dsd/...tralCity_A.pdf (about 3-4 square miles compromise "Downtown Sacramento)
I know its not bigger in area than DT Phoenix, but the question was about pedestrian friendliness.
It actually IS bigger than downtown Phoenix. What most people confuse for Phoenix as "downtown" are the historic districts and ALL the high-rise corridors of downtown/midtown/uptown. However, all these together make a walkable, pedestrian friendly area larger than downtown Sac, Tuc, and Alb combined...
Quote:
As for your claims about about DT Scotsdale and Tempe's urban areas having more residents than Sacramento, that's just flat out false. Sacramento has 470,000 people--thats more than Tempe and Scottsdales pop. combined (around 430,000). Neither city has a walkable area as big as downtown Sac.
Actually, the urban districts of Tempe, which exceed 40,000 people/square mile, is an area greater than 5 square miles, much larger than Sac and much more walkable with very tiny streets along every district; Mill, University, Ash-Maple, and town lake. Scottsdale's Old Town/Downtown isn't as big but is comparable to Sac's at around 2-3 square miles and is one of the smallest grid layouts in the west...
Quote:
Look at this walkscore map, notice how the DT area in Sac is all green:
Now check this out look at the map on the 2nd page. Not huge but a decent sized walkable area.
What's funny about this:
Quote:
The top 4 neighborhoods in Sacramento are Walkers' Paradises. 20% of Sacramento residents have a Walk Score of 70 or above. 54% have a Walk Score of at least 50—and 46% live in Car-Dependent neighborhoods.
10% of Phoenix residents have a Walk Score of 70 or above. 53% have a Walk Score of at least 50—and 47% live in Car-Dependent
If the transit data was included, all the central city neighborhoods and cities (downtown, uptown, midtown, Christown, Tempe) would have near 100 scores!
Last edited by fcorrales80; 02-02-2010 at 01:49 PM..
If the transit data was included, all the central city neighborhoods and cities (downtown, uptown, midtown, Christown, Tempe) would have near 100 scores!
What information/date would they need to release to change the walkscores? And how exactly would it change the walkscores at all? This argument really isn't making much sense here. Transit doesn't change the fact that Phoenix is a spread out, auto oriented city overall; bus lines and transit lines don't make an area more walkable just b/c they are there.
There is one thing I missed in the calculations of the downtown comparisons, downtown Sacramento is considered a bigger area than its CBD (central business district) and is a few square miles, unlike Phoenix' small, compact downtown with 14,000 residents. Like the argument with AZLiam I had before, if we include an area comparable to downtown Sac in Phoenix, we are talking more than 35,000 people. http://www.cityofsacramento.org/dsd/...tralCity_A.pdf (about 3-4 square miles compromise "Downtown Sacramento)
It actually IS bigger than downtown Phoenix. What most people confuse for Phoenix as "downtown" are the historic districts and ALL the high-rise corridors of downtown/midtown/uptown. However, all these together make a walkable, pedestrian friendly area larger than downtown Sac, Tuc, and Alb combined...
Actually, the urban districts of Tempe, which exceed 40,000 people/square mile, is an area greater than 5 square miles, much larger than Sac and much more walkable with very tiny streets along every district; Mill, University, Ash-Maple, and town lake. Scottsdale's Old Town/Downtown isn't as big but is comparable to Sac's at around 2-3 square miles and is one of the smallest grid layouts in the west...
If the transit data was included, all the central city neighborhoods and cities (downtown, uptown, midtown, Christown, Tempe) would have near 100 scores!
Your idea of what is "urban" seems to be highly misguided. Tempe has very few truly urban areas, as close as it gets is Mill Ave. near the university. It has nothing close to the scale of downtown Sac.
As for Phoenix, if you actually look at the walkscore maps, youll see a huge difference in the downtowns. The rest of Phoenix and Sac respectively (i.e. the areas that are NOT downtown) are very comparable, both have uber-urban sprawl and very few walkable pockets.
But, as the walkscore maps show, Sac's downtown is a much larger and more continuous walkable area than Phoenix's.
LOL, yes we did and many of those clubs you listed weren't downtown and they looked like something from Benson, Arizona! LOL A Maloney's is not a club but a restaurant/bar that has HUGE parking lots surrounding the flat, one story structure. This is the rule of the game for Tucson's "clubs"/cafes/restaurants! LOL, you do realized 200,000 people come to 1 square mile ALONE in downtown Phoenix! Please, who are you trying to kid!
OMG.
You CLEARLY have no clue what you are talking about! The majority of those clubs fall between Congress St and 4th Ave. There is a continuous string of bars/clubs/cafes/restaurants, shops, etc. There, I laid it out crystal clear for you. I stated bars/clubs (and you clearly know this by going back and re-reading that entire thread).
BTW, 200,000 people DO NOT hang out regularly in downtown Phoenix. I am certainly LOL.
I've come to the conclusion to not try to argue with you because you love to twist the facts to support your agenda; however, do not twist my words.
What information/date would they need to release to change the walkscores? And how exactly would it change the walkscores at all? This argument really isn't making much sense here. Transit doesn't change the fact that Phoenix is a spread out, auto oriented city overall; bus lines and transit lines don't make an area more walkable just b/c they are there.
If you click on the link to the walkscore, all the categories used to rank are on the left hand-side. Transit is used for such ranking but "no data" is available for metro Phoenix because walkscore would need Valley Metro to release its information.
If you click on the link, then click on the "no data, why" you'll see why walkscore can't use this criteria.
You CLEARLY have no clue what you are talking about! The majority of those clubs fall between Congress St and 4th Ave. There is a continuous string of bars/clubs/cafes/restaurants, shops, etc. There, I laid it out crystal clear for you. I stated bars/clubs (and you clearly know this by going back and re-reading that entire thread).
BTW, 200,000 people DO NOT hang out regularly in downtown Phoenix. I am certainly LOL.
I've come to the conclusion to not try to argue with you because you love to twist the facts to support your agenda; however, do not twist my words.
200,000 for clubs no, this is the working population of the central Phoenix area...I read your statement incorrectly. Nonetheless, there are more people that congregate in downtown Phoenix for work and for nightlife, cultural events (First Fridays draws 20,000-30,000 people alone to the Roosevelt Row/Arts District).
Last edited by fcorrales80; 02-02-2010 at 08:09 PM..
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