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Old 10-23-2007, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
18,235 posts, read 25,930,159 times
Reputation: 9002

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Quote:
The Deep South:

South Carolina
Mississippi
Florida
Alabama
Georgia
Louisiana
Texas
I'm sorry. But I just do not consider Texas the deep south. And this is coming from a Texan. Southern, yes. Deep South, nope.
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Old 10-23-2007, 03:12 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,742 posts, read 6,616,137 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colts View Post
You know, it's funny how people try to lump entire states into one category or another. The same people who say Missouri is Southern are the same ones who incorrectly say that Virginia and Florida aren't Southern. You cant base a state's regional identity off of one area of the state that happens to be culturally distinct from the rest (i.e. Miami, NoVa, Missouri bootheel)

Hockey is popular in northern Minnesota and Michigan. Does that make them Canadian provinces?
Exactly. 100% agreement here.
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Old 10-23-2007, 03:37 PM
 
158 posts, read 405,994 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajf131 View Post
How is Missouri below the Mason-Dixon? Again, it is FACT that the Ohio River is the Mason-Dixon line. I can say for certain that I've never seen any type of swing. Missouri has leaned Midwestern ever since the end of the Civil War, Kentucky has leaned more Southern, Maryland and Delaware have leaned Northeastern. Historically I agree these can be considered border states, but in terms of modern times almost every historic border state now leans decisively towards a certain region. This is a silly argument. I have lived here over 20 years and know my state. In a recent survey taken on the border states, roughly 200-500 people from each state were surveyed in a study done by the University of North Carolina. For Maryland, 60% claimed to be Northern, Delaware, 80% claimed to be Northern. For Kentucky, 70% claimed to be Southern, and for Missouri, 77% of the people considered themselves Midwestern, and under 15% of the people considered themselves Southern. 8% were undecided. So if these states are still border states, the residents certainly would not agree with you.
The Ohio River is the Ohio River and the Mason-Dixon is the Mason-Dixon. They are separate and distinct. Now, they may converge and totally overlap in areas, but that doesn't mean they are inseparable. As for 200-500 people from each state beying surveyed as to whether they were Northern or Southern. Those "control groups" were obviously way too miniscule in comparison with the entire state's populations. Shucks, there's 200-500 people in some city blocks or neighborhoods for Pete's sake. Those few people can in no way reflect a true and accurate account of the entire state. The only way to get the most accurate response is to send out email and hard mail to virtually resident of every county, city, town, and house in those states asking them this question. A rather difficult task, but nevertheless a much more accurate one.

And by-the-way. I have already stated that these 6 states are Border states. I have shown my flexibility and willingness to let people speak for their home states. Obviously somebody from any given state should know a little something about their home land. But I've found this ain't the case always. I worked with a guy who is now in his late 30s or early 40s. He was born in Orlando, Florida and raised in Florida all his life. He even played for a rock group once called Shovelhead. Me and him got to talking one day about the South and the Confederacy, War and what-not. To my surprise, he didn't know that Florida was one of the Confederate states, let alone a founding member of the CSA! As if that wasn't an insult, he further didn't think Florida was even a state at that time! I was sort of flabbergasted and shocked! Florida became a state in 1845 (with same geographical state boundaries then as today) and seceded on 1-10-1861--the third state out of technically 13. So, I'm sure he's not the only person ignorant of his own state's history. There's just some things though, that people have no excuse to not know and this is one of them! State history should be a requirement in every state!

Back to the topic though. Maybe even if total polls of enture Border state populations were taken, the results would be similar, but it would still be far more accurate. But the Border states are just that. The trouble with modern America is they try to cover up, eliminate, sweep under the rug, and distance theirselves from the past in the wrong ways. One way of doing this is to redefine regional affiliation. The traditional boundaries are fine. If something ain't broke, don't fix it! The simple regions of the continental 48 states are as follows:

THE NORTHERN STATES (20):

Northeast:

Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Massachusetts
Rhode Island
Connecticut
New York
New Jersey
Pennsylvania

Midwest:

Ohio
Michigan
Indiana
Illinois
Wisconsin
Iowa
Minnesota
North Dakota
South Dakota
Nebraska
Kansas

THE BORDER STATES (6) CAN BE ADDED TO NORTH OR SOUTH OR BOTH:

Delaware
Maryland
West Virginia
Kentucky
Missouri
Oklahoma

THE SOUTHERN STATES (11):

Deep South:

South Carolina
Mississippi
Florida
Alabama
Georgia
Louisiana
Texas

Upper South:

Virginia
Arkansas
Tennessee
North Carolina

THE WESTERN STATES (11):

Northwwest:

Montana
Wyoming
Idaho
Washington
Oregon

Southwest:

Colorado
New Mexico
Arizona
Utah
Nevada
California
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Old 10-23-2007, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
6,749 posts, read 19,565,463 times
Reputation: 2116
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida southerner 3 View Post
The Ohio River is the Ohio River and the Mason-Dixon is the Mason-Dixon. They are separate and distinct. Now, they may converge and totally overlap in areas, but that doesn't mean they are inseparable. As for 200-500 people from each state beying surveyed as to whether they were Northern or Southern. Those "control groups" were obviously way too miniscule in comparison with the entire state's populations. Shucks, there's 200-500 people in some city blocks or neighborhoods for Pete's sake. Those few people can in no way reflect a true and accurate account of the entire state. The only way to get the most accurate response is to send out email and hard mail to virtually resident of every county, city, town, and house in those states asking them this question. A rather difficult task, but nevertheless a much more accurate one.

And by-the-way. I have already stated that these 6 states are Border states. I have shown my flexibility and willingness to let people speak for their home states. Obviously somebody from any given state should know a little something about their home land. But I've found this ain't the case always. I worked with a guy who is now in his late 30s or early 40s. He was born in Orlando, Florida and raised in Florida all his life. He even played for a rock group once called Shovelhead. Me and him got to talking one day about the South and the Confederacy, War and what-not. To my surprise, he didn't know that Florida was one of the Confederate states, let alone a founding member of the CSA! As if that wasn't an insult, he further didn't think Florida was even a state at that time! I was sort of flabbergasted and shocked! Florida became a state in 1845 (with same geographical state boundaries then as today) and seceded on 1-10-1861--the third state out of technically 13. So, I'm sure he's not the only person ignorant of his own state's history. There's just some things though, that people have no excuse to not know and this is one of them! State history should be a requirement in every state!

Back to the topic though. Maybe even if total polls of enture Border state populations were taken, the results would be similar, but it would still be far more accurate. But the Border states are just that. The trouble with modern America is they try to cover up, eliminate, sweep under the rug, and distance theirselves from the past in the wrong ways. One way of doing this is to redefine regional affiliation. The traditional boundaries are fine. If something ain't broke, don't fix it! The simple regions of the continental 48 states are as follows:

THE NORTHERN STATES (20):

Northeast:

Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Massachusetts
Rhode Island
Connecticut
New York
New Jersey
Pennsylvania

Midwest:

Ohio
Michigan
Indiana
Illinois
Wisconsin
Iowa
Minnesota
North Dakota
South Dakota
Nebraska
Kansas

THE BORDER STATES (6) CAN BE ADDED TO NORTH OR SOUTH OR BOTH:

Delaware
Maryland
West Virginia
Kentucky
Missouri
Oklahoma

THE SOUTHERN STATES (11):

Deep South:

South Carolina
Mississippi
Florida
Alabama
Georgia
Louisiana
Texas

Upper South:

Virginia
Arkansas
Tennessee
North Carolina

THE WESTERN STATES (11):

Northwwest:

Montana
Wyoming
Idaho
Washington
Oregon

Southwest:

Colorado
New Mexico
Arizona
Utah
Nevada
California
This is the first time I have heard Oklahoma as a border state or Tennessee as an upper south. I have always heard TN as mid-south and there are even signs stating that in Nashville.
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Old 10-23-2007, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
6,749 posts, read 19,565,463 times
Reputation: 2116
I agree with this....

Deep South - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and most of this with the exception of Missouri,Delaware, and MD

Image:US map-South Modern.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 10-23-2007, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
6,749 posts, read 19,565,463 times
Reputation: 2116
Quote:
Originally Posted by missymomof3 View Post
This is the first time I have heard Oklahoma as a border state or Tennessee as an upper south. I have always heard TN as mid-south and there are even signs stating that in Nashville.
Well, I stand corrected. I found an article about upland south that spoke of what you stated Floridasoutherner3. Sorry!
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Old 10-23-2007, 07:15 PM
 
158 posts, read 405,994 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by missymomof3 View Post
Well, I stand corrected. I found an article about upland south that spoke of what you stated Floridasoutherner3. Sorry!
That's okay. It's all good. I was just going to say that if the Upper South states of VA, AR, TN, and NC are actually the Mid South, then by them being Mid or Middle, doesn't that by automatic relationship make the immediate states above them (OK, MO, KY, WV, MD, and DE) Upper South? In other words, if the Deep or Lower South is just that, and the Middle South is just that, then were is the Upper South? Could it be the Border States? Could they be Southern as well as Northern? A pertinent question I think?
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Old 10-23-2007, 09:46 PM
 
Location: St. Louis, MO
3,742 posts, read 6,616,137 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida southerner 3 View Post
That's okay. It's all good. I was just going to say that if the Upper South states of VA, AR, TN, and NC are actually the Mid South, then by them being Mid or Middle, doesn't that by automatic relationship make the immediate states above them (OK, MO, KY, WV, MD, and DE) Upper South? In other words, if the Deep or Lower South is just that, and the Middle South is just that, then were is the Upper South? Could it be the Border States? Could they be Southern as well as Northern? A pertinent question I think?
That is why you have to look at speech patterns, agriculture, culture, landscape and demographics as deciding factors. The Upper South was used to define states which did not immediately secede from the Union like the other Deep Southern states (Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina). In this sense, every state included in the modern definition except Kentucky, which is today considered part of the Upper South because its culture, speech patterns, religious demographics, and climate all mirror that of other states like Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Arkansas, is indeed part of that pattern. Missouri is not part of the Upper South because agriculturally, culturally, dialectually, climatalogically, industrially, Missouri does not have very much in common with states like Kentucky, Virginia, or Tennessee except generally in the south central and southeastern region. Oklahoma has a lot in common with Arkansas, but it also has a lot in common with Kansas, New Mexico, and Texas. Missouri is almost completely surrounded by either plains states or Midwestern states. Southern states comprise a mirror third of its border, and only in the extreme Southern portions. Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana border Kentucky, yet I fail to see you claim they are Southern. the middle south as I've understood it was meant to mean from east-to-west using the U.S. Census Bureau's definition of the North and South. I have traveled all over the South many times now, and being a resident of Missouri and having traveled all over this state, I think I am fairly well qualified to say where the South begins and ends. The Southern third of Southern Missouri has very strong resemblance to the South. Kentucky is essentially a western extension of Virginia. North of Charleston, West Virginia is much less Southern than south of it. Virginia south of D.C. is Southern. Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, and Southern Ohio have some Southern characteristics but are overall Midwestern. These are roughly where the South begins and ends. By the South, I mean culturally, agriculturally, dialectually, basically just about every definition of Southern I can think of. Kentucky may not have seceded during the Civil War, but the Russellville Convention had over sixty-three Kentucky counties present and Confederates took control of the state after the Civil War. In the end, it's all a matter of opinion, but the majority of the facts are as I am giving them. I am speaking from true personal experience that I've had many times. I'd say that if you want to know where the South ends and begins, experience it for yourself. But most of Missouri is not the truly Southern. Oklahoma is a state that I've found virtually impossible to classify. It has so many different sides to it, so many different speech patterns, and mixtures of cultures...it is a true mixture of Southwestern, Midwestern, and Southern, and also Great Plains.
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:17 PM
 
2,248 posts, read 6,042,979 times
Reputation: 2062
I don't normally agree with ajf , but I think he's spot on here.
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:47 AM
 
Location: Kentucky
6,749 posts, read 19,565,463 times
Reputation: 2116
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajf131 View Post
That is why you have to look at speech patterns, agriculture, culture, landscape and demographics as deciding factors. The Upper South was used to define states which did not immediately secede from the Union like the other Deep Southern states (Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina). In this sense, every state included in the modern definition except Kentucky, which is today considered part of the Upper South because its culture, speech patterns, religious demographics, and climate all mirror that of other states like Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Arkansas, is indeed part of that pattern. Missouri is not part of the Upper South because agriculturally, culturally, dialectually, climatalogically, industrially, Missouri does not have very much in common with states like Kentucky, Virginia, or Tennessee except generally in the south central and southeastern region. Oklahoma has a lot in common with Arkansas, but it also has a lot in common with Kansas, New Mexico, and Texas. Missouri is almost completely surrounded by either plains states or Midwestern states. Southern states comprise a mirror third of its border, and only in the extreme Southern portions. Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana border Kentucky, yet I fail to see you claim they are Southern. the middle south as I've understood it was meant to mean from east-to-west using the U.S. Census Bureau's definition of the North and South. I have traveled all over the South many times now, and being a resident of Missouri and having traveled all over this state, I think I am fairly well qualified to say where the South begins and ends. The Southern third of Southern Missouri has very strong resemblance to the South. Kentucky is essentially a western extension of Virginia. North of Charleston, West Virginia is much less Southern than south of it. Virginia south of D.C. is Southern. Southern Illinois, Southern Indiana, and Southern Ohio have some Southern characteristics but are overall Midwestern. These are roughly where the South begins and ends. By the South, I mean culturally, agriculturally, dialectually, basically just about every definition of Southern I can think of. Kentucky may not have seceded during the Civil War, but the Russellville Convention had over sixty-three Kentucky counties present and Confederates took control of the state after the Civil War. In the end, it's all a matter of opinion, but the majority of the facts are as I am giving them. I am speaking from true personal experience that I've had many times. I'd say that if you want to know where the South ends and begins, experience it for yourself. But most of Missouri is not the truly Southern. Oklahoma is a state that I've found virtually impossible to classify. It has so many different sides to it, so many different speech patterns, and mixtures of cultures...it is a true mixture of Southwestern, Midwestern, and Southern, and also Great Plains.
Thank you ajf!
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