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Okay, I'll answer and then we can move on because we could argue about this all day in a good way It seems like we are both knowledgeable and proud of our states (North Carolina for me and Texas for you)
Eastern North Carolina has an "old south" feel. During the antebellum period and Civil War, the majority of the plantations in the state were in this region. This area also ties back to the old days of England and the Colonial era with the Lost Colony, Tryon Palace in New Bern, historic coastal cities such as Wilmington, etc. I've never been to East Texas, but I doubt you can find this "old south" influence in that region. However, I actually did some research and discovered the Varner-Hogg Plantation so I'll give you that if you think there is an "old south" influence. That's fine if some people don't consider NC to be "a true southern state" because we think we are and history is definitely on our side. It's kind of the same over here, some people want to assume Maryland is a southern state but most North Carolinians and Virginians don't think so. It's true that North Carolina was the second to last state to secede and join the Confederacy but during the Civil War, NC provided more troops to the army than any other Confederate state and suffered the most casualties. Maybe NC was a little late in seceding like the rest of the Upper South states, but NC was incredibly devoted during the war. NC was readmitted into the Union in 1868 like half of the rest, Texas was readmitted in 1870. Not much of a difference, I'd say. You can find many Civil War sites in NC, I'm sure you can find a few in Texas but not as much as NC. Johnston surrendered to Sherman outside Durham and that really helped end the war outside of Virginia. I think the Mexican influence makes Texas much more of a Southwestern State. You don't find these influences in Southern states. This is all my opinion and I'm judging by my travels in Texas. I've been all around the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, Austin, and San Antonio. I drove from Dallas to San Antonio, and to me, it didn't feel "southern" in the way that I think is "southern." Texas is more southwest, while NC is more southeast. That's my opinion
=JayJayCB;33640452]Okay, I'll answer and then we can move on because we could argue about this all day in a good way It seems like we are both knowledgeable and proud of our states (North Carolina for me and Texas for you)
Yes, we are and that is some common ground!
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Eastern North Carolina has an "old south" feel. During the antebellum period and Civil War, the majority of the plantations in the state were in this region. This area also ties back to the old days of England and the Colonial era with the Lost Colony, Tryon Palace in New Bern, historic coastal cities such as Wilmington, etc. I've never been to East Texas, but I doubt you can find this "old south" influence in that region.
Uhhh, a lot of what you are describing is just as much "colonial? as "Old South" in the sense of when the whole true Southern "ethos" came into play (sometime after the nullification crisis in the 1830's.). But Old South as in the sense of ante-bellum cotton-state plantation state and all? Welllll.... the East Texas area of that South could probably "contain" eastern North Carolina. Again, I am not trying to be sarcastic...but it could.
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However, I actually did some research and discovered the Varner-Hogg Plantation so I'll give you that if you think there is an "old south" influence.
See above a bit. So what else could it be? C'mon...guy! Not trying to be a smart-a$$, but surely you don't think that one is the ONLY Old South influence in East Texas, do you?
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That's fine if some people don't consider NC to be "a true southern state" because we think we are and history is definitely on our side. It's kind of the same over here, some people want to assume Maryland is a southern state but most North Carolinians and Virginians don't think so.
I only bring that up because of your original assertion about Texas. I was just making a point that the definition of "The South" can be subject to literally a hundred definitions and it depends upon many factors. Personally? I DO consider NC a Southern state (my South is the 11 Old Confederate States plus Kentucky and Oklahoma as states more Southern than not...and West Virginia on the fence).
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It's true that North Carolina was the second to last state to secede and join the Confederacy but during the Civil War, NC provided more troops to the army than any other Confederate state and suffered the most casualties. Maybe NC was a little late in seceding like the rest of the Upper South states, but NC was incredibly devoted during the war. NC was readmitted into the Union in 1868 like half of the rest, Texas was readmitted in 1870. Not much of a difference, I'd say.
No, not much of a difference in terms of literal years -- and none were for that matter -- but quite a bit if one considers the terms accepted by the re-admitted states. That is, Texas, was second to last because the legislature flatly refused to accept certain terms for re-admission. One of them -- among several -- being they would not accept the condition that secession itself was "null and void" ad-initio (that is, from the beginning). The most Texans would do is say it was void as a result of the outcome of the war itself. Finally, the federals, pretty much tired of the whole Reconstruction charade and process, just gave up and re-admitted Texas, anyway.
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You can find many Civil War sites in NC, I'm sure you can find a few in Texas but not as much as NC. Johnston surrendered to Sherman outside Durham and that really helped end the war outside of Virginia.
Yes, in terms of numbers of sheer major battlefields, no question NC has more. And no question NC troops (tarheels) fought bravely. But did you know that Texas was the only Confederate state where the Yankees failed to successfully invade? Ever hear of the Battle of Sabine Pass? (where 47 Texans in a make-shift fort actually held off an armada), and Davis later said that "Sabine Pass, will stand, perhaps for all time, the greatest military victory in the history of the world.." Look it up. And that General Lee once said "No troops have brought greater honor to their state than have my Texans." Did you know that the last battle of the War was fought in Texas (Palmitto Ranch), and that the Texans won? Thus, the last battle was a Confederate victory thanks to Texans?
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I think the Mexican influence makes Texas much more of a Southwestern State. You don't find these influences in Southern states.
So, again, tell me more about how Texas has more in common with Arizona and New Mexico than with the southeastern states (from which the overwhelming majority of its settlers came from)...in terms of the actual qualities mentioned in the above post (history, culture, language, etc). So far as the "Mexican" thing goes? Well, you have a certain point there, but here (in a nutshell, as I see it), is the biggest difference between the two. This is taken from Raymond Gastil's classic regional/cultural book titled "Cultural Regions of the United States", where he puts almost the entire state of Texas in a sub-region of the "Greater South" aptly named the "western South").
Within, he gave rightful emphasis on the vast differences with the true SW (or "southern West" ! LOL)...and one of which was the hispanic influence. As he put it:
"Unlike the Interior Southwest, neither aboriginal Indian nor Spanish-American culture played a central role in the definition of the area. The people of Texas are mostly from the Lower, Upper, and Mountain South and these Southerners easily outnumbered the Spanish speaking and Indian people even before the state joined the Union. Therefore, when we refer to a large Spanish-speaking population in Texas, we are primarily speaking of a relatively recent immigrant population, quite different from the core areas of the Interior Southwest."
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This is all my opinion and I'm judging by my travels in Texas. I've been all around the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, Austin, and San Antonio. I drove from Dallas to San Antonio, and to me, it didn't feel "southern" in the way that I think is "southern."
Wellll, perhaps on this trip you really didn't take all that much time to explore much beyond the major interstates?
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Texas is more southwest, while NC is more southeast. That's my opinion
And it is a good opinion and one I could agree with, if a distinction is made between the Southwest of the "western South" and the "Southwest" of the "southern West"!
But anyway, we can talk more later. Loooong past my bedtime! Enjoyed it! Have a good night (or actually, when you see this one, it might be a good morning! LOL). Take care, North Carolina!
Uhhh, a lot of what you are describing is just as much "colonial? as "Old South" in the sense of when the whole true Southern "ethos" came into play (sometime after the nullification crisis in the 1830's.). But Old South as in the sense of ante-bellum cotton-state plantation state and all? Welllll.... the East Texas area of that South could probably "contain" eastern North Carolina. Again, I am not trying to be sarcastic...but it could.
See above a bit. So what else could it be? C'mon...guy! Not trying to be a smart-a$$, but surely you don't think that one is the ONLY Old South influence in East Texas, do you?
I only bring that up because of your original assertion about Texas. I was just making a point that the definition of "The South" can be subject to literally a hundred definitions and it depends upon many factors. Personally? I DO consider NC a Southern state (my South is the 11 Old Confederate States plus Kentucky and Oklahoma as states more Southern than not...and West Virginia on the fence).
No, not much of a difference in terms of literal years -- and none were for that matter -- but quite a bit if one considers the terms accepted by the re-admitted states. That is, Texas, was second to last because the legislature flatly refused to accept certain terms for re-admission. One of them -- among several -- being they would not accept the condition that secession itself was "null and void" ad-initio (that is, from the beginning). The most Texans would do is say it was void as a result of the outcome of the war itself. Finally, the federals, pretty much tired of the whole Reconstruction charade and process, just gave up and re-admitted Texas, anyway.
Yes, in terms of numbers of sheer major battlefields, no question NC has more. And no question NC troops (tarheels) fought bravely. But did you know that Texas was the only Confederate state where the Yankees failed to successfully invade? Ever hear of the Battle of Sabine Pass? (where 47 Texans in a make-shift fort actually held off an armada), and Davis later said that "Sabine Pass, will stand, perhaps for all time, the greatest military victory in the history of the world.." Look it up. And that General Lee once said "No troops have brought greater honor to their state than have my Texans." Did you know that the last battle of the War was fought in Texas (Palmitto Ranch), and that the Texans won? Thus, the last battle was a Confederate victory thanks to Texans?
So, again, tell me more about how Texas has more in common with Arizona and New Mexico than with the southeastern states (from which the overwhelming majority of its settlers came from)...in terms of the actual qualities mentioned in the above post (history, culture, language, etc). So far as the "Mexican" thing goes? Well, you have a certain point there, but here (in a nutshell, as I see it), is the biggest difference between the two. This is taken from Raymond Gastil's classic regional/cultural book titled "Cultural Regions of the United States", where he puts almost the entire state of Texas in a sub-region of the "Greater South" aptly named the "western South").
Within, he gave rightful emphasis on the vast differences with the true SW (or "southern West" ! LOL)...and one of which was the hispanic influence. As he put it:
"Unlike the Interior Southwest, neither aboriginal Indian nor Spanish-American culture played a central role in the definition of the area. The people of Texas are mostly from the Lower, Upper, and Mountain South and these Southerners easily outnumbered the Spanish speaking and Indian people even before the state joined the Union. Therefore, when we refer to a large Spanish-speaking population in Texas, we are primarily speaking of a relatively recent immigrant population, quite different from the core areas of the Interior Southwest."
Wellll, perhaps on this trip you really didn't take all that much time to explore much beyond the major interstates?
And it is a good opinion and one I could agree with, if a distinction is made between the Southwest of the "western South" and the "Southwest" of the "southern West"!
But anyway, we can talk more later. Loooong past my bedtime! Enjoyed it! Have a good night (or actually, when you see this one, it might be a good morning! LOL). Take care, North Carolina!
Pleasure talking to you, also! I definitely enjoyed the short period of time I spent in Texas, very interesting state and I would love to see more of it. Loved the Dallas area and Austin reminded me of Asheville, NC. If you've ever been to North Carolina, hope you enjoyed it!
Very interesting topic, ranking states according to how one perceives them as "Southern." Here is my own (for the two cents it might be worth! LOL), list. I might mention that, like a previous poster, I am expanding the originally suggested list of states, out to those defined as "South" by the U.S. Census Bureau, as well as Missouri (which in an historical context, has at least SOME claim to being Southern
From least to most, along with my own personal thoughts and opinions:
17. Delaware - (nothing Southern about it other than Census definition)
16. Maryland - (a few Southern aspects, but Census definition is main reason)
15. Missouri - (southern parts of Missouri have some characterisitcs of the mountain South, but for the most part it is a midwestern state)
14. West Virginia - (Mountain South that blends with the northern appalachian region of Pennsylvania. Refusal to join the Confederacy pretty much forever limits its status as a Southern state).
13. Oklahoma - (some very decent Southern characteristics south of Oklahoma City and east of Tulsa due to influence of Texas and Arkansas settlers), but it gets more "midwestern" north of west of the above lines).
The above are the states I would consider, to one degree or another, the least Southern of all. Next group:
12: Florida (Historically unquestionably Southern, and north of Orlando, still very much so. However, the decades long outside migration has considerably diluted a good part of the state's earlier character. Very sad).
11. Kentucky - (Had Kentucky truly joined the Confederacy, its status as a Southern state today would probably not be the subject of much debate. On the other hand, mint julips and fried chicken are a state icon, and it is said it indeed DID "join the Confederacy after the War", as evidenced by the fact that it observes a Confederate holiday and statues in memory of the CSA are numerous.)
10. Virginia - (It is hard to think of the birthplace of Confederate heroes such as Robert E. Lee, and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson (to just name the permier), and that the capital of the Confederacy was in Richmond, as being anything BUT Southern. Yet, sadly, northern migration into the northern part of the state has had an impact.)
9. Texas - (THIS is a story in itself and, as a native Texan, I will address in more detail in another post! LOL For the moment though, I will just say that Texas is essentially a Southern state. And as ajf131 said, its support for the Confederacy was original and unquestionable. East Texas is where the Deep South begins, and even West Texas was settled by migrating Southernerns. The cultural impact was and remains, very Southern. Still, many things, not of the least of which are demographic trends in terms of migration (legal or otherwise) have diluted Texas, overall, as being considered a totally Southern state. Again though, more on that in another, later, post.
The states above (the "second team" so to speak! LOL) are USUALLY considered Southern, and the "order" can be re-arranged depending on perspective). Now, for the "starting" lineup! *grins*
8. Arkansas - ( An Upper South state that didn't secede until after Ft. Sumter, but unquestionably Southern, even if a combination of Deep and Mountain South, in character)
7. North Carolina (Upper South that didn't secede until after Ft. Sumter, yet had an absolute history of devotion to the Confederacy when it did. Some parts more Southern than others, but pork BBQ for sure secures its status)
6. Tennessee (Again on joining the Confederacy, but anyone who has ever vistited there, especially in Memphis and certain other parts, don't question it being Southern).
5. Louisiana (the northern part of the state is Deep South. The reason I rank it #5 is that there is a heavy Catholic and French Cajun influence in the southern part which, while Southern in its way, is not typical of the true Deep South).
4. South Carolina - (The first state to secede, and with the most support within. The ONLY reason it might be ranked as not the "most Southern" is the colonial influence and its own certain brand of independence. At the same time, with South Carolina and the states to follow, are those which most, admirably IMHO, proudly and without qualm, proclaim their "Southerness")
3. Georgia - (Gone With the Wind. The Empire State of The South, epitome of the "southern accent". ONLY problem is Atlanta nowdays!)
2. Alabama - (Azaleas, plantations, DEEP Deep South thru and thru. Literally, in all ways, the geographical "Heart of Dixie" whether or not one defines "The South" by the Old Confederacy, or the commonly thought of Deep South states (South Carolina thru Louisiana). Only reason it is second is that the northern part is a bit different from the Old South way of life).
1. Mississippi - (I might mention that this is my own ancestral state, but I dont think that fact influences my opinion. Mississippi combines all things commonly considered "Southern" with very few dilutions at all).
Ok, I am finished. Although I gotta elaborate on Texas a bit more, later! LOL
I have to hand it to ya Reb, I'd say this is the most accurate list I've seen. Personally, I'd put Virginia in front of Texas because southern VA ("tobacco belt") is still very much southern and actually feels more similar to NC but that's just me. Rest of the list is spot on!
Wow, first Maryland and now Delaware, West Virginia and Missouri? The South is the scariest region in the US and people down there eat scary foods such as grits and sweet tea and go to scary restaurants such as Waffle House and Shoney's. Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia and Missouri are not one of the Southern States. Those states are geographically Northern. If you want to call those states southern, You might as well call southern parts of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and New Jersey southern as well.
Wow, first Maryland and now Delaware, West Virginia and Missouri? The South is the scariest region in the US and people down there eat scary foods such as grits and sweet tea and go to scary restaurants such as Waffle House and Shoney's. Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia and Missouri are not one of the Southern States. Those states are geographically Northern. If you want to call those states southern, You might as well call southern parts of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and New Jersey southern as well.
The Census Bureau categorizes MD, DE, and WV as Southern. How many times has this been said already?
Wow, first Maryland and now Delaware, West Virginia and Missouri? The South is the scariest region in the US and people down there eat scary foods such as grits and sweet tea and go to scary restaurants such as Waffle House and Shoney's. Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia and Missouri are not one of the Southern States. Those states are geographically Northern. If you want to call those states southern, You might as well call southern parts of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and New Jersey southern as well.
Is that all you can come up with? A big load of ignorance...
Maryland is more than just Baltimore and Washington....
Areas outside of the Baltimore-Washington Corridor(and certain parts within it also) is Southern....
Just by judging from commentators stereotyping Maryland Confirms that they have NEVER been to the State of Maryland except possibly drive through it to get to New Yor or some other Northeast State...........
My Uncle owns a summer house in southern Maryland in St Mary's county. That area feels incredibly southern, albeit with a pleasant Maritime addition. The weather there is absolutely southern though. Very hot and humid. DC is also a southern feeling area, but the obvious influx of multiple cultures has diluted it a lot. Baltimore is on the very edge and I would consider it more of a northern mindset. Virginia is undoubtedly southern though.
As for my own state, Louisiana, it is definitely southern, but a very unique type. The northern half north of Alexandria feels very deep south but below that Acadiana is an eclectic mix of influences of spanish and French, predominantly Catholic with very few Baptist churches to be found.
Here's my ranking of the southern states from 1 to 10 (this includes some of the non-southern states that have southern influences, but usually have a low rating):
Mississippi-10 (A deep southern state)
Alabama-10 (A deep southern state)
Louisiana-10 (A deep southern state)
Georgia-9 (Mostly southern except for Atlanta)
South Carolina-9 (Mostly southern except for a few pockets)
Tennessee-8 (Mostly southern, but influenced by the Appalachians)
North Carolina-8 (Mostly southern except for Charlotte and Raleigh)
Arkansas-8 (Mostly southern and is part of the Mississippi Delta)
Florida-7 (I just put Florida at a higher rank than Virginia and Kentucky because of Florida's deep south location and history)
Kentucky-6 (has Midwestern influences in the north, supposed to be in the confederacy)
Virginia-6 (has East Coast influences in the north)
Texas-5 (a really big state, sometimes called a southern state)
West Virginia-4 (most of West Virginia are similar to Pennsylvania)
Oklahoma-4 (Half southern, half Midwestern)
Missouri-4 (Southern Missouri is similar to Arkansas and Tennessee and was supposed to be in the confederacy)
Illinois-3 (has parts that have southern influences in the southern part of the state)
New Mexico-3 (borders Texas, but is mostly southwestern)
Indiana-3 (borders Kentucky and has southern influences in the south)
Maryland-2 (rarely called a southern state)
Kansas-2 (borders Oklahoma and Missouri)
Ohio-1 (nothing southern but the southernmost parts borders Kentucky)
Arizona-1 (nothing southern other than the location)
The rest of the US gets a 0.
Last edited by muppethammer26; 11-08-2014 at 11:11 PM..
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It seems like we are both knowledgeable and proud of our states (North Carolina for me and Texas for you)
