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I think some of you guys are assuming a lot with KC. It's almost like you are describing KC as a sunbelt city. Some of KC has some western characteristics, primarily the sprawling suburbs with their glass box office parks. But the urban core of KCMO has far more eastern character than western as the city was built around street cars. KCMO is more "grit" than "new" etc. I think a lot of you need to actually spend some time in KC.
I obviously know KC well, but have also lived in StL and know it very well too.
Overall, I think they are pretty close cities.
Culture
Without being too specific, I think they cities are pretty similar in their cultural offerings, although I think KC may get the edge with the arts scene, especially after the new performing arts center opens.
Economy
Probably KC, it's pretty well known that for the past decade or so, the KC economy has been stroger and growing a little faster.
Cost of Living
St Louis. Actually COL in KC has crept up and it's higher than St Louis by a tad
Food
Tie. There is so much more to KC than bbq and while StL excels with Italian, both cities offer a wide range of world food.
Transportation
StL wins with a very good interstate system which is connected well to the rest of the country and a decent transit system. StL may have rail, but they have a terrible bus system for the most part. But StL still beats KC by a landslide because KC’s transit system is embarrassing for the size of the city.
Airport
Tie. StL used to be a hub, and had 2-3 times the flights plus international flights. Now STL has dropped down to about the same as MCI. MCI is a little cheaper to fly out of, but STL has light rail connecting the airport to Downtown.
Walkable neighborhoods
Tie, both cities have some great walkable urban neighborhood and sprawling burbs.
Housing styles
Tie, this is where the cities really seem to go in different directions ,but both offer a wide variety of urban housing types.
Natural scenery
Tie, The urban core of kcmo is actually quite hilly while most of urban stl is pretty flat, while some of the suburbs in stl are quite hilly and some of the suburbs in kc are flat and boring.
Does this look western or eastern? Serious question. I just never think of KC as a denver or phoenix, I would group it more with the industrial cities of the midwest.
Last edited by JMT; 07-07-2012 at 08:43 AM..
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I travel to both regularly for both business and otherwise. I've always seen StL as, not the gateway to the west, but the end of the east. By contrast, KC definitely has some western roots as the terminus for most of the great cattle drives. It's that tradition that gets celebrated in the American Royal, which I couldn't possibly imagine happening in StL.
Culturally, StL wins on performing arts (especially symphony), KC on art museums.
Economy-- KC by a little at the moment, not much, and the future is brighter in KC. StL is probably in permanent decline, but there's enough people there to sustain a decent economy. KC's not going to exactly take off growth-wise either.
Cost of living-- dunno, haven't really paid attention.
Transportation- I don't think either place has nearly the sort of traffic problems of a Chicago, Houston, or Atlanta. Both have extensive highway systems, at least enough to fill their needs for years to come. StL's little rail service is better than nothing, but only just.
Airport-- as mentioned above, Lambert in StL was downgraded from TWA/American hub status, and is way too big for StL's needs. Parts of it are a ghost town. For me, it's still the airport of preference because it's a lot easier to get to for me than KCI. Good Southwest connections from there, too. Dunno how KCI's Southwest connections are. JetBlue doesn't fly to either one, which to me is telling about JetBlue's opinion of their two economies.
walkable neighborhoods-- only done a lot of walking in StL's neighborhoods, but the close-in ones are perfectly nice. Some could be an adventure-- CWE, for instance, after dark.
Really no opinion on the rest.
Did you ask about food? Prefer KC by a LOT. Sorry, but I do. Wondrous BBQ, best fried chicken in the universe at Stroud's, just a better eating scene there by far. I am NOT a fan of StL Italian food, sorry, although Trattoria Marcella is quite fine, and I like Pho Grand.
Location: Austin, TX/Chicago, IL/Houston, TX/Washington, DC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grindin
I'm only saying that STL was more "eastern" in look and feel, in terms of the layout, housing, etc. The city is definitely Midwestern.
I wouldn't say Kansas City had "mountain state" characteristics, but more of a Great Plains culture to it than STL. I'm not too sure how much of a relationship with say, Omaha, OKC, or even Denver or Dallas; wheras I think STL has more of a relationship with Chicago.
No dude, I think you misunderstand me. I was in agreement with you. Lol.
I travel to both regularly for both business and otherwise. I've always seen StL as, not the gateway to the west, but the end of the east. By contrast, KC definitely has some western roots as the terminus for most of the great cattle drives. It's that tradition that gets celebrated in the American Royal, which I couldn't possibly imagine happening in StL.
Culturally, StL wins on performing arts (especially symphony), KC on art museums.
Economy-- KC by a little at the moment, not much, and the future is brighter in KC. StL is probably in permanent decline, but there's enough people there to sustain a decent economy. KC's not going to exactly take off growth-wise either.
Cost of living-- dunno, haven't really paid attention.
Transportation- I don't think either place has nearly the sort of traffic problems of a Chicago, Houston, or Atlanta. Both have extensive highway systems, at least enough to fill their needs for years to come. StL's little rail service is better than nothing, but only just.
Airport-- as mentioned above, Lambert in StL was downgraded from TWA/American hub status, and is way too big for StL's needs. Parts of it are a ghost town. For me, it's still the airport of preference because it's a lot easier to get to for me than KCI. Good Southwest connections from there, too. Dunno how KCI's Southwest connections are. JetBlue doesn't fly to either one, which to me is telling about JetBlue's opinion of their two economies.
walkable neighborhoods-- only done a lot of walking in StL's neighborhoods, but the close-in ones are perfectly nice. Some could be an adventure-- CWE, for instance, after dark.
Really no opinion on the rest.
Did you ask about food? Prefer KC by a LOT. Sorry, but I do. Wondrous BBQ, best fried chicken in the universe at Stroud's, just a better eating scene there by far. I am NOT a fan of StL Italian food, sorry, although Trattoria Marcella is quite fine, and I like Pho Grand.
I really don't see how the STL area is in permenant decline, even the city stabalized the last decade and is gentrifying. I see the trendlines looking better than any point the last few decades in STL but a big problem coming up is the aging population leading to a future labor crunch which KC won't have.
Economy I do see KC as a bit stronger but see strong possibilty of St. Louis stregthening the next decade due to diversifying economy and having to bring in or keep young adults due to demographic shift. I also see Missouri as the most likely Midwest state to start exhibiting 'Sunbelt' growth patterns as well.
^
I agree, STL is not in a decline, but has improved dramatically over the past 10 years. St Louis just overwhelmingly passed Prop A, to expand their metrolink system and the bus system has improved quite a bit. This subject has been beat to death in other forums, I will just copy a post I wrote.
I grew up spending a lot of time in both cities. I have lived in St Louis for almost 6 years now. I live in the city and absolutely love it.
Population: St Louis is bigger than KC by about a million people, (I think 800,000) Both cities are experiencing growth.
Economy: Here is the breakdown of Missouri Economy from the MERIC website:
% of Missouri GDP:
St. Louis 46%
KC 22%
Others 32%
Sports: STL is a HUGE baseball town, we also have the Blues-Hockey and Rams-Football. KC seems to be much more into Football and there are a lot of die hard Chiefs fans. They also have the Royals for baseball (they suck BAD) One of the reasons I prefer the STL sports scene, is all our stadiums are located downtown, where as KC's are in the burbs.
People: I have heard from other people that the people in KC are much friendlier than STL. I have never noticed this, but some say its true. I think people in both cities are pretty friendly.
Mass Transit: This is where STL is much better. They have a pretty good light rail system. To be able to really use it you need to live in the city or inner burbs. This is a huge plus for me because I like taking the metrolink to work, airport, The Loop, West End, etc. The metro plan is to eventually extend to the suburbs and put more lines in the city. KC does not have any kind of rail.
Theme parks: St Louis has Six Flags, KC has World of Fun. Both have water parks. Six Flags is much bigger and better than Worlds of Fun.
Family friendly stuff to do: I also think this is where St Louis takes the cake. There are so many FREE things to do for a family. There is the zoo, science center, city museum, magic house, Grants Farm, The Arch, Hidden Valley (skiing)
Someone from KC will have to help me regarding this topic
Education: Both cities have really bad city schools, but many suburban schools are top notch. There are a few good magnet schools in the city of STL, but a many children in the city go to private school. As for higher education, STL has the edge. We have Washington University, which is one of the best schools in the country. We also have Saint Louis University which is highly ranked, Webster University, Fontbonne, Lindenwood University and University of Missouri St Louis. There are a few other smaller schools, but they escape me right now.
KC has University of Missouri-KC, Rockhurst, and William Jewel. I am sure there are a lot more, these are the only ones I could think of.
Both cities have identical community college scenes. STL has St Louis Community College and St Charles Community College with 6 locations around the city. KC has Metropolitan Community College with I believe 5 locations. I have visited all of these for work, pretty much the same.
Shopping: Both cities have no shortage of the typical malls, ect. I think KC takes the edge because of the plaza. The plaza is an area in the city with tons of shops and restaurants. It's very nice and gorgeous around Christmas time. STL has plaza Frontenac, which is higher end shopping. We also have The Loop, which is my favorite place to shop. Lots of really cool shops, restaurants, movie theater, hotel, concert venue and actually is constantly named in the top 10 "Best streets in the country".
Arts: Kansas City has the KC Art Institute, so they have a very good arts scene for a medium size city. St Louis has several galleries as well as Grand Center, which has become the arts hub of STL.
Music: I do think STL has the edge here because of the Fox Theater in midtown. It really is the best place I have ever seen a show, absolutely gorgeous. We also have The Pageant which is on the loop. It's a pretty cool venue that plays smaller shows, think Modest Mouse. There is Verizon Wireless Amphitheater which holds the big shows, it seats 23,000. We also have the Muny which is the nations oldest and largest outdoor stage. They have plays and musicals all summer long, it is located in Forest Park and is fabulous. There are also little theaters scattered throughout the city for plays, concerts, etc.
Kansas City has The Sprint Center for their really big shows, located downtown, really cool building. A lot of their smaller shows are played in Uptown Theater, which is probably comparable to our Pageant. They are in the process of building a really gorgeous art center, not sure where it will be located, I'm thinking downtown.
Newspapers: I believe KC has the edge here. St Louis has the St Louis Post Dispatch, KC has the Kansas City star. I have friends that have worked as photographers for both papers, they say the KC star is a better paper. I personally haven't noticed a huge difference.
Crime: St Louis is worse for crime, but not much. STL gets a bad rap because of the most dangerous city list that comes out each year. But, what most people don't know is they stats are very skewed. In STL the city and county are split. When all those list are done they are only counting the city limits, the North side of the city tends to be pretty bad. In every other city they count the entire metropolitan area. I believe I read that if you counted St Louis like every other city, we wouldn't even be in the top 50 for crime. I've had friends mugged in both cities.
Neighborhoods: This is where I believe STL has a strong edge. We have really amazing neighborhoods that makes St Louis an awesome unique city. My personal favorites are: Downtown, Central West End, Soulard, Tower Grove, Shaw, Old North and St Louis Hills. My favorite thing to do on the weekend is to drive around the city and look at all the fabulous architecture. St Louis is a brick city, most of the city neighborhoods are all red brick and I love that.
KC also has amazing neighborhoods: Downtown, West Port, Hyde Park, Plaza and many more. Someone from KC will help you with that.
Parks:ST Louis has Forest Park which is one of the best parks in the country. Located within the park is the St Louis zoo, which is one of the best in the country, and is free. There is also the Modern Art Museum, Jewel Box, Missouri History Museum, and other buildings from the 1904 Worlds Fair. I don't think KC has anything that can compare to Forest Park, but I am sure they have great parks as well.
Downtown: The downtowns in both cities have gone from being awful to pretty cool places. Both cities have rehabbed many downtown buildings for lofts. KC now has about 15,000 downtown (I think) and STL is around 12,000. I believe both populations will continue to grow as more and more buildings are converted. I read that at one time STL had like 60-70 vacant buildings, there is now 8-9, half which are either in the process of being rehabbed or in the planning stages. Kansas City built a Power & Light district which is a huge development, covering many city blocks. There is a movie theater, grocery store, restaurants, bars, etc. It seems to be the place to be right now for locals. I personally hated it, but its just not my scene. They also have Rivermarket and Crossroads which are cool little areas. I have a couple friends that live downtown KC and really like it. St Louis has Washington Avenue and The Landing. Washington Avenue is lined with restaurants, bars, shops, gyms, etc. This is the center of the Loft district. The Landing is down on the riverfront. There is a huge new casino and Four Season Hotel. The streets are still brick and there are tons of little restaurants, clubs and bars. There is a new City Garden which has been nationally recognized for being a really great urban park with sculptures. The City Museum is also located downtown, I can guarantee there is nothing else like it in the midwest, if not country. There are now two grocery stores downtown, which was actually a big deal.
Airport: Both airports are in need of a face lift, they are starting to look dated. The STL airport is located right outside of the city limits, in a pretty central location. The metrolink goes right to it, which is very convenient for me. I actually really dislike KC's airport, its located kind of far out and you have to take a shuttle to get to the different sections.
Getting away: Both cities are located within 3 hours of the Lake of the Ozarks, which tends to be Missouris playground in the summer. STL has the edge here because of it's proximity to Chicago. It's very easy to take a weekend trip.
Overall: Overall I prefer St Louis, mostly because I love the vibe and I like to
take the metrolink to work. There is a huge urban renewal scene here and I like to be a part of that. People from KC are going to probably prefer KC and people from St Louis are going to prefer STL. Some say STL has a more Eastern feel, where KC has a Western feel. Both are medium size midwestern cities that are good places to call home. Both cities have a relatively low cost of living.
You mention both cities in your post but then don't really specify where are those photos taken residential Kansas City or residential St. Louis? They look great!
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