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I realize this question could have gone in the "Is Cleveland Northeast, Midwest, or neither?" thread, but I wanted to give my question somewhat higher visibility.
I was just in Cleveland for 3 days (well, 2 full days and 2 part days) for a conference and had an opportunity to check out parts of the city/metro area on foot (a relatively large portion of downtown, especially the western half, plus Shaker Square) and via public transit (all of the rail portions of the RTA system excluding the Waterfront Line, plus the BRT Euclid Corridor Health Line), plus attend a pair of Indians games. (For whatever it is worth, I was able to stay at a hotel in the Tower City complex and did not use a car during my trip, coming in from the airport via the RTA Red Line.) I was planning on coming back to visit Cleveland in the next year or so anyway (I was last in Cleveland in July 2005), and I had an enjoyable time.
At any rate, my time in Cleveland and previous readings about Cleveland's cultural identification (not just the thread mentioned above, but other things I've read over the last few years) got me thinking about something I've wondered about for awhile - when Cleveland area natives think about going to one of the big U.S. cities that has "everything" and is the center of its region, do Clevelanders gravitate towards going to New York (the unofficial capital of the East Coast/Northeast) or Chicago (the unofficial capital of the Midwest)? Cleveland is near the midway point between the two cities, both cities are a mostly straight shot on I-80 from Cleveland, and both cities presumably both have lots of flights connecting them to Cleveland. I'm particularly interested in this question because I know from living in western Pennsylvania a little more than an hour from Pittsburgh while going to grad school for 2+ years that Pittsburgh area natives definitely gravitate more towards going to New York rather than Chicago (which relates to many Pittsburghers getting upset when people from the true Northeast - like me, an eastern Pennsylvania native - tell them Pittsburgh is not a true Northeast city). Additionally, I can tell you as an East Coast native that most people native to the East Coast do not have much interest in visiting Chicago (if they think about Chicago to begin with) - it's nothing against Chicago, rather it's an attitude of why go to Chicago when New York and the other large East Coast cities are much closer. (FWIW, I took a much-desired leisure trip to Chicago last summer for 5 days that included a day trip to Milwaukee and had a great time in both Chicago and Milwaukee, so I'm probably a little different than most East Coast natives.) With Cleveland being closer to Chicago and further from New York than Pittsburgh is, and being in a true Midwest state, even if Northeast Ohio is part of what I call the Northeast/Midwest transition zone, I was wondering if Clevelanders' attitudes towards "New York orientation" or "Chicago orientation" were similar, somewhat different, or very different than Pittsburghers' attitudes. Any thoughts from Cleveland area natives or long-time Cleveland residents would be appreciated.
I'm a native and back when I lived in the Cleveland/Akron area I would usually go to New York City for my big city trips. Toronto and Washington DC are also about the same distance as Chicago and NYC, so they're also in the equation when it comes to trips. I personally visited NYC, Toronto, and DC all more than I did Chicago back when I lived in the Cleveland area, although that could have just been me. There are certainly some similarities between Cleveland and Chicago with them both being Great Lakes cities and Chicago being slightly closer. I think people in Cleveland have more of a tendency to look to Chicago when being critical of Cleveland's shortcomings because both cities are layed out in a similar manner along a Great Lake. However, Cleveland is in the eastern time zone, is much closer to New York State than Illinois, and has some prominent natives with ties to New York (e.g. Rockefeller, Steinbrenner, the Ratners).
I live in Chicago now and can tell you that there are a good number of Cleveland area transplants here. I'm sure NYC also has a good amount of Cleveland transplants, but I think the cost of living in NYC scares a lot of Cleveland natives from relocating there. Even Chicago is very expensive compared to Cleveland, although it might not seem like it to an East Coast native.
Even though I live in Chicago and enjoy it, I personally have more of a comfort level in the Northeastern States than in the Midwest. Big cities aside, I would feel more at home in Upstate New York or Central PA than I would in the middle of Indiana or Wisconsin. Although I'm sure different people will have varying opinions on this depending on their personal experiences.
Well, I don't live in Cleveland and I'm not from Ohio originally. I live in Cincinnati and I from Connecticut, so needless to say I look towards NYC. As for Cincinnatians, in my experiences, a good portion of them hardly travel anywhere, and don't care to. There are a lot of natives here who have never even been to Cleveland. I've also met a few who have never a been to Columbus! For the ones who do travel, it seems to be evenly split, probably with a slight edge leaning more towards NYC. One of my co-workers actually flew out to NYC today, just on a leisurely trip to visit family.
You are definitely right about most east coast natives not giving Chicago much thought. I always knew it was a big city but it was never a city I was 'itching' to visit. I think being located in the midwest is the reason why Chicago is sometimes overlooked. It seems like the only ones who really care about Chicago are the ones who live in the midwest. Chicago, unfortunately seems to be one of those cities that has low attraction, and you have to actually visit it to become intrigued by it. It's a great city nonetheless.
I've been there a few times and was pleasantly surprised. It was actually bigger than what I thought it would be. I guess because the drive there is a whole bunch of nothing, until you get to extreme northwest Indiana. I started getting a little 'worried' when I was approaching the Illinois border and still seeing trailer parks along the interstate. The first time I went, it was basically a "I'm bored so let me see what Chicago is like" type trip.
I was really surprised when visting Milwaukee since I was not expecting much. Milwaukee has some amazing architecture and their lakefront is more developed than Cleveland's.
I can't speak for all Clevelanders, but some of the ones I know look more towards NYC since they view it as a more different and intriguing city. Yeah, they may know Chicago is a big city, but Cleveland isn't a small city either. What I'm getting at is that I've known some Clevelanders to like Chicago but see it as an extremely larger and more cosmopolitan version of Cleveland but see NYC as the 'real deal.' BUT, I don't want to speak for the Clevelanders, so I'll let them chime in.
I'm sure NYC also has a good amount of Cleveland transplants, but I think the cost of living in NYC scares a lot of Cleveland natives from relocating there. Even Chicago is very expensive compared to Cleveland, although it might not seem like it to an East Coast native.
Yep! Sometimes I want to move back to the east coast, but then the reality of my student loans vs. cost of living sets in. I've been kind of contemplating on moving to Chicago for the big city living, but in the back of my mind, I've also said anything west of Ohio is too far west for me.
You are definitely right about most east coast natives not giving Chicago much thought. I always knew it was a big city but it was never a city I was 'itching' to visit. I think being located in the midwest is the reason why Chicago is sometimes overlooked. It seems like the only ones who really care about Chicago are the ones who live in the midwest. Chicago, unfortunately seems to be one of those cities that has low attraction, and you have to actually visit it to become intrigued by it. It's a great city nonetheless.
I've been there a few times and was pleasantly surprised. It was actually bigger than what I thought it would be. I guess because the drive there is a whole bunch of nothing, until you get to extreme northwest Indiana. I started getting a little 'worried' when I was approaching the Illinois border and still seeing trailer parks along the interstate. The first time I went, it was basically a "I'm bored so let me see what Chicago is like" type trip.
I was really surprised when visting Milwaukee since I was not expecting much. Milwaukee has some amazing architecture and their lakefront is more developed than Cleveland's.
I can't speak for all Clevelanders, but some of the ones I know look more towards NYC since they view it as a more different and intriguing city. Yeah, they may know Chicago is a big city, but Cleveland isn't a small city either. What I'm getting at is that I've known some Clevelanders to like Chicago but see it as an extremely larger and more cosmopolitan version of Cleveland but see NYC as the 'real deal.' BUT, I don't want to speak for the Clevelanders, so I'll let them chime in.
I think you bring up some good points. Given that the cost and effort to visit NYC and Chicago are about the same coming from Cleveland, I think it makes sense that people would be more inclined to visit NYC since it's our nation's alpha city. If that's true, I don't really know.
Also, before I ever visited Chicago I did view it as a larger version of Cleveland. As somebody from Cleveland this took away from my desire to visit it. Of course I now know that Chicago offers many things that Cleveland can't at this time, such as downtown shopping (without having to go to malls), a developed and active lakefront, dynamic urbanism, and the ability to live car-free. Cleveland does more than hold its own in some other aspects though.
People from other Midwest states are drawn to Chicago like magnets, but as you suggested the draw is not as great from other regions (except Mexico and Poland but that is another story). The overwhelming majority of U.S. transplants are from the surrounding states. I know some people here from other parts of the country, but their numbers are small in comparison.
I agree with you about Milwaukee also. Very under rated. I think there is probably less to do in Milwaukee than in Cleveland and don't find it quit as interesting, but it has a great lakefront, much nicer neighborhoods close to the downtown core, and more money in the inner city than Cleveland does. Cleveland could learn a few things from Milwaukee about how to improve the city.
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Originally Posted by high mileage
Yep! Sometimes I want to move back to the east coast, but then the reality of my student loans vs. cost of living sets in. I've been kind of contemplating on moving to Chicago for the big city living, but in the back of my mind, I've also said anything west of Ohio is too far west for me.
Chicago is a nice east coast alternative that is affordable for an urban lifestyle. For renters I don't think it's any more expensive than an Ohio's cites if you ditch the car and free yourself of that expense. However, if you want to own a place it becomes a different story.
I'm not a big fan of being in the central Midwest myself. I think the only places I would live in the Midwest are Chicago because it's a great city and Ohio because it's the farthest east and it's my home state. I do like Milwaukee, Minneapolis/St. Paul, and some of the smaller Wisconsin cities, but not enough to overcome what I see as an inferior geographic location. And I know what you mean about that drive into Chicago, as I drive to Ohio and back often. NW Indian and the south side are rough looking. Chicago's nicer suburbs are to the west and north along the lake.
I think Philly might be a another good place for more affordable city life. Not up to par with Chicago, but the geographic location makes up for it.
Toronto: 7 times
Chicago: 3 times
NYC: Once
Wash DC: Once
Of the 4 cities mentioned I think Toronto used to be a MUCH cooler city then any of the other 4 by a large margin. As it has continued to grow it has lost some of the things that made it so cool. However it is still a very fun, safe (much safer then the other 3), hip, friendly, hospitable, shop-able, walkable large metro area.
I don't think any city ON EARTH compares to NYC (which as I like to say "has the BEST of everything... and the WORST of everything")... but Toronto holds its own against the other 2... easily.... and IMO is still much "cooler" then all 3.
I have family in both, but more in NYC than Chicago. And I've also traveled to both many times and lived in both, again NYC more than Chicago.
As far as similarities go, I think it's pretty obvious Cleveland has a lot more in common with Chicago than NYC, but Chicago itself is out of place in the "midwest" just as Cleveland is. I also agree with the other poster, in the Midwest I would usually not consider living west of Ohio, I make an exception for Chicago and some parts of Indiana. The Twin cities are nice, but not really my thing. A little too far north for me and "out there". Plus the winters up there are surprisingly harsher than Clevelands, not the snow but the temperature. I remember I was up there one winter, I looked at the temperature and it said I believe -20 outside with a -45 degree windchill, or some ridiculous number like that. You know what Clevelands temperature was that same moment? 45 above lol. I would consider Milwaukee, but there's really nothing there I couldn't get in Chicago or Cleveland and better.
... Given that the cost and effort to visit NYC and Chicago are about the same coming from Cleveland, I think it makes sense that people would be more inclined to visit NYC since it's our nation's alpha city....
I've got to disagree here. Chjcago is a 6 hour drive. NYC is a 12 hour drive. A hotel room in downtown Chicago will cost me $200, and the same room in Manhattan is $400.
The people I know dream about going to NYC, but actually go to Chicago.
On a money scale, Chicago is 125%-150% of Cleveland prices, where NYC is 200%-400% (or more, if you're talking restaurants)
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Originally Posted by 5Lakes
Also, before I ever visited Chicago I did view it as a larger version of Cleveland.
I tell people Chicago is a bigger, cooler Cleveland turned sideways!
Culturally, I think Clevelanders like to think they're just a bit down the list from NYC, and equal to Chicago. This may not be an accurate assessment, but it's the way the cultural/arts world here in Cleveland thinks. We have a lot of ego; after all, we must be good, we've survived ____ and still have culture! and arts! and great restaurants! and so on.
Really. The last time I drove to NYC, I made it in 7.5 hours (480 miles). I do the Chicago trip in about 5.5 hours (350 miles).
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Culturally, I think Clevelanders like to think they're just a bit down the list from NYC, and equal to Chicago. This may not be an accurate assessment
It's not.
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but it's the way the cultural/arts world here in Cleveland thinks. We have a lot of ego; after all, we must be good, we've survived ____ and still have culture! and arts! and great restaurants! and so on.
They think this way, in large part, because it is very true.
When I was in NYC a few years back, my gf and I went to Morimoto. While the restaurant and the service were both largely superb, there was a group working the downstairs bar who thought it would be fun to gamble on our whereabouts. Now, I will admit that we had been going all day long and did not have time to get back to the hotel and freshen up (I also had a laptop in tow as I was working in Brooklyn that day), but we were far from underdressed, underfunded, or clueless as I'm easily a 30x NYC veteran. Nonetheless, they thought it would be fun to single us out. The irony of the situation is that they were serving us. That, my friends, is the difference between Cleveland and NYC. Even the 'help' think they are somehow better than you merely based on their native geography. Needless to say, we left them feeling more insecure than they already were.
Last edited by Cleveland_Collector; 06-20-2010 at 09:54 AM..
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For the ones who do travel, it seems to be evenly split, probably with a slight edge leaning more towards NYC. One of my co-workers actually flew out to NYC today, just on a leisurely trip to visit family.
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