@ those asking about which areas in Cleveland are 'safe' (Mount Carmel: condo, neighborhoods)

[captaincatfish]

Originally Posted by OverMyCoffeeCup

If Little Italy got diversified...it wouldn't be Little "ITALY" anymore.

In my opinion, that is what went wrong with Cleveland in the past 20 years. We lost our "pockets" of culture. Everything used to be separated by ethnic groups. And it was awesome. Now...everythign is mixed up and what was once amazing cultural neighborhoods are run down by thugs.

Let me start off by saying I am a born and bred Clevelander...my family still lives in Cleveland Heights and Brooklyn, even though I myself now reside in Southwest Ohio...One thing I have always loved about my hometown is that very 'ethnicity'...

But in reading this post, I am reminded that some folk wish everything could be like the good old days---that is, the Archie Bunker style 'good old days', where blacks, Asians, Indians, etc 'knew their place and stayed in it' (read---nowhere around certain whites)...

Well, glory hallelujah, a new day has dawned, and that place is now anywhere they danged well please...I'm oh so sorry that your wish to throw barbed wire and guards and crocodile-filled moats around some parts of the city never came to pass (as if), but Cleveland is no longer 'separated by ethnic groups (more codespeak for not having to be around anybody that doesn't look, speak, walk, or act like me)' and (gasp!) that's a good thing

How are people ever going to overcome their differences and knock down old barriers, if they can't interact with each other? That means ACTUALLY INTERACTING with people of other races, creeds, and religions, and not sitting at home like a mushroom, afraid to go outside after hearing a steady diet of negativity on the evening news...

Whether you know it or not, people are starting to buy and restore houses in the inner city, thugs and idiots be damned...and they're not all 'fleeing to suburbs like sensible whites do' (what baloney...every white person with a brain doesn't run like a scalded dog at the sight of someone different than them)...I'm talking about whites AND blacks doing this---I'm getting this firsthand from my family members...

So, I said all this to say that diversity and change are not dirty words...Little Italy, as far as I know, is STILL Little Italy...people are starting to have the courage to move places they never would before, because they know that living in the real world is a lot more fun than living like a mushroom and muttering 'whatever happened to my good-old fashioned plain vanilla world, where everybody looked like me and everything was just ducky?'

I mean, last time I heard from my family, Cleveland had NOT turned into the 7th belly of Hell and fallen into the center of the Earth, because people of different backgrounds decided to peacefully co-exist with one another, and move into different neighborhoods...maybe you should try it sometime

[Euclidbuck]

give me a break.


its the same reason blacks can't stand yuppies moving into Harlem.

Nobody likes to see there history erased.

Its inevitable, everyone realizes this, but thats doesnt mean they have to like it.


And your right, Cleveland will never retain its glory days, but it was those glory days that made it the city it was and is to this day.

Cleveland was at its peak as one of the most diverse cities in America.

Your looking at it like its bad to retain culture and customs.

Like we should all become some cookie cutter American suburbanized person

Its happening in many ways anyway with every passing generation.

Forget that.

[5Lakes]

Originally Posted by Euclidbuck

i agree. Little Italy has become a trendy spot and is losing some of its Italian luster. But Italians ahave moved on to the suburbs and are emigrating anymore so its only a matter of time.

You only have to go down to the Feast of the Assumption, which was this weekend to see how much things have changed.


Slavic Village is not even close to being predominatly 'slavic'.


Any white with a decent job flees to the suburbs and I dont really blame them.


But Little Italy is still a nice place to live. Its buffered from the decay and the residents keep it up. Most properties are still Italian owed they just rent to alot of college students from Case.

This is evident in every city, not just Cleveland. You should see Chicago's Little Italy - way more of the old culture has been lost there.

Authentic ethnic neighborhoods are a result of new immigrants because the old guard does not stick around enough.

I disagree about "Any white with a decent job flees to the suburbs." Many old neighborhoods are changed due to (mostly) white gentrification, not just to blight. I would say the flee to the suburbs thinking is more common in Cleveland than a lot of other places though.

Originally Posted by Euclidbuck

give me a break.


its the same reason blacks can't stand yuppies moving into Harlem.

Nobody likes to see there history erased.

Its inevitable, everyone realizes this, but thats doesnt mean they have to like it.


And your right, Cleveland will never retain its glory days, but it was those glory days that made it the city it was and is to this day.

Cleveland was at its peak as one of the most diverse cities in America.

Your looking at it like its bad to retain culture and customs.

Like we should all become some cookie cutter American suburbanized person

Its happening in many ways anyway with every passing generation.

Forget that.

I pretty much agree with this. It's more about keeping tradition, not some kind of bigotry.

Becoming generic sucks, although it beats turning into a ghetto.

[Peregrine]

I disagree about "Any white with a decent job flees to the suburbs."

Me too. Being a white male with an excellent job and living IN Cleveland proper.

I hate suburbs.

[captaincatfish]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Me too. Being a white male with an excellent job and living IN Cleveland proper.

I hate suburbs.

If folks had actually really read my post, then they'd know that I am NOT trying to advocate erasing ANYONE'S history or culture...my beef was with the poster who longed for the days when Cleveland was separated by ethnic group...

It's the blasted separation that's the problem...how am I going to learn about the culture and history of others, when we're all supposed to just live behind our separate walls and not come out due to fear and ignorance of each other?

That's what I was trying to get across, NOT wiping out other cultures...I WANT to know, even now, more about the people that live around me, and I'm quite sure others on here feel like I do...cutting yourself off from the rest of society because of 'fear of da ghetto' makes absolutely no sense to me...

[Euclidbuck]

people will naturally gravitate toward what they are more comfortable with.

The majority anyway.

Its rare that people want to explore and experience everything for the sake of it. Many are content in their own familiar spots.

It's their right and there is nothing wrong with that.


'Fear of da ghetto'.....fair enough, but the ghetto sucks. I work all over the city and have seen most of the neighborhoods in Cleveland up close and personal.

I would never want to live in Glenville, Hough, Woodland etc....

Not nowadays anymore...

but back in the days when these places were not decayed ghettoes, maybe i would.

Back when Woodland or Collinwood was Italian, I'd think of moving there, but not now.

Most blacks want to live with blacks and whites with whites.


Earlier a poster of PR and black descent wanted to find a neighborhood that had both of those groups. and they felt the need to have to justify that.

Thats ridiculous.

We have differences, we need to stop running away from them and ignoring them and instead just accept them.

People like variety.

If you didnt like variety than you wouldn't want to learn about the culture and history of others.

[marence]

Um, do any of you advocating a return to the ethnic enclaves of city life realize that the reason there were enclaves was two-fold - first and foremost, it was because the new immigrants weren't welcome anywhere else, and secondly, because of the first reason, the immigrants closed ranks and lived out their lives in a familiar neighborhood surrounded by "their kind"?
It's only in the past two or three decades that the ethnic enclaves have opened their neighborhoods up, and that was usually not by choice, but because the older immigrants died off, and their children had made the flight to the suburbs, so housing was more plentiful.
I could tell you stories about ethnic hate between Polish, Italian, Czech and Hungarian factions that rivals gang war stories. No drive-by shootings, but if your weren't in "your" part of town, bats, pipes, and chains would chase you back...

[Townes Van Zandt]

Great posts, Euclidbuck.

Marence, no one is denying any of that. But the fact remains that when Cleveland was inhabited by primarily Europeans, it was much safer. The main difference is that the Irish, Polish, and Italian mafia were organized crime networks. Today, the African American "gangsters" are nothing more than disorganized fools working against one another and ruining their own nieghborhoods.

It's no coincidence that the Polish, Irish, and Italian people all worked their way out of the ghetto, while the black nieghborhoods haven't changed in years(they've only gotten worse). There's certainly some innate intelligence differences that must account for this.

[Euclidbuck]

Its not even about black and white.

Listen the reason we have seperate countries is because different cultures and ethnic groups have their own history on a piece of land.

Its no different when you visit any American city.

There will always be white neighbrhoods, hispanic, black etc.....there is nothing wrong with that.


Forcing integration for the sake of being diverse is utterly ridiculous.

The only thing that should matter is that there is no discrimmination permitted under LAW.


The ease with which people throw around bigot, racist, prejudiced these days is way out of control.


If you are comfortable around your own culture, thats NORMAL.

If you want to live amongst other cultures, thats rare, but as long as you show respect to those people you live amongst you probably won't have problems.



ANd clashes between groups are teh result of many things. Competition for jobs, turf, etc. There are clashes within each group.

Conflict is inevitable amongst humans especially in a competitive society such as ours.


The only way competition would be eliminated is if we went Brave NEw World and had a governing body that controlled every aspect of our lives doing away with free speech, thought etc.

[marence]

Originally Posted by Euclidbuck

The only way competition would be eliminated is if we went Brave NEw World and had a governing body that controlled every aspect of our lives doing away with free speech, thought etc.

I don't think competition is the problem as much as closed minds and selfishness, in both Orwell and life.