Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland (Canton, Lakewood: apartment, city hall, mortgages)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
My views are my own as anyone is well aware. As I posted elsewhere, I see no forum rule that states that ALL post need to be pro-Cleveland. While you may deal in opinion as I do, I might add that the FACTS clearly support my point of view: a city with declining population in a region and state that are NOT business friendly. If one lives in Cleveland or RITA city, you pay a tax rate of at least 5.9% state and about 2% local. Those are top rates and they matter because it is the people/companies that bring the jobs who pay the TOP rate. Why will they come to Cleveland/Ohio with such high taxes?That is 7.9% total, and is MORE than living even in New York (but less than Manhattan...what a bargain!). Every day you read about another hike in real estate tax or income tax. And one wonders why Cuyahoga lose people to surrounding counties and Ohio loses people to other states.
So if you want to call a bottom for Cleveland, more power to you. What I see is a very slow decline that shows no sign of turning around. There are always good and bad things going on in any city/area. Maybe Cleveland can turn it around, but I do not see the fundamental reason that will cause this. Cheap living and a few good restaurants is not the answer. Jobs are and I don't see them coming. Anyone, like the OP, who is considering moving to this area should hear BOTH sides of the story.
I'm looking forward to seeing it all for myself and developing my opinion through first hand experiences, which will ultimately inform whether I make the move or not. I'm fortunate in that I have the luxury to make a move and easily go elsewhere if it doesn't work out.
I'm resolved that if I go, I'm going to give it my absolute best shot. I'm going to get involved in the community via non-profits, neighborhood groups, professional societies, etc. I'm going to attend the cultural offerings (plays, symphonies, festivals, etc). If Cleveland is so extraordinarily bad that it still drags me down after that, well, I'll have to reassess and give the naysayers the first shot to say "Told you so". Bacaboy is not bringing up anything that I haven't heard before, and believe me, I know I'm going to have to have interesting discussions with friends and family if/when I tell them I'm going to Cleveland. But that's okay, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
Last edited by Marshall Gibson LP; 07-10-2012 at 04:09 PM..
I think you will like it when you get here. Every "new" place looks good at first and the grass is greener on the other side as they say.
What I'm talking about are the structural problems with the area that ARE NOT changing. From taxes, to regulation, to poor leadership, the area/state are just not competitive and do not have enough positives to overcome this. Look at Indiana, Michigan and Wisconsin...all states who have much better leadership who are trying to attract business and people much more aggressively than Ohio. These are all rust belt states that I think have a better chance than Ohio/Cleveland to get better.
In any case, you are absolutely doing the right thing in coming to visit. A visit is fantastic for a few days in most cities and Cleveland certainly has plenty to do to keep you busy. It may certainly work for you longer term depending what you want. I guess what I am saying is that if I had a child who could move anywhere in the country, I would not recommend Cleveland relative to other cities. Your situation is obviously different so I wish you luck whatever you decide.
PS
If you want excellent food that is very inexpensive, check out the restaurant at the Whole Foods in University Heights. It is among the few in the country that has the full restaurant inside the supermarket. Get a bottle of wine (or beer) from the wine area (no need to order wine on menu) and belly up to the counter. Food is fresh, made with quality ingredients and probably better than 90% of the restaurants mentioned above. May not be "trendy" enough (a suburban strip mall!) for the cool posters on this forum, though, and gasp...it's a chain!
Yes, there is construction going on but not the right type.
Totally disagree.
You focus on 2 projects and say "not the right type". Really?
Have you seen what's going on in the Flats? Is that not "the right type"??
or how about this? historic downtown buildings will be transformed into apartments using tax credits
or this? Plans announced to develop Cleveland's MidTown, renovate and rename East 55th & Euclid Avenue
I could go on and on and on and on.
Yes, I respect your opinion. But I do think you are wrong.
Cleveland HAS turned a corner. Not sure if it was this thread or the other where you said "people thought Cleveland was improving in the 90's, and it didn't", That comment right there proves to me that you don't really know what's been going on in Cleveland for the last 20 years, or so.
And maybe it's because you've only been here for 10. And that's cool. Maybe because I've grown up here and seen SO much change that I have a better perspective?
Have you been to Tremont? Now hop in your time machine and check it out in 1992. Woah, right?
How about Gordon Square? Mind blowing, right?
Even Kamms Corner...in 1992 is was a collection of tiny bars and restaurants that only the 44111 zip code visited... maybe a tiny bit of spillover from Fairview... check it out now. UNREAL, right?
How about the old Everyready Battery plant off Lorain near 75th? Sat vacant for years. Wouldn't catch me down there after midnight in 1992.
Now the single largest housing development in Cleveland full of $150K-$250K homes. Which are 99.99% full (only one unit remain available last I heard). A formerly forgotten part of the city... and a nice place to have some adult beverages today...
Geez... someone please do something about the downward spiral here...
Glad you respect my opinion but disagree. I feel the same way. For every positive (Kamms Corner "unreal?"...funny!) you mention I could come up with a negative to point out: Tower City, Gateway, Cleveland Heights (and most other inner ring suburbs), Euclid Square, Randall Park etc. Or do the inner ring suburbs not count in your world? This is what happens to a region that has been losing population for over 40 years. See here:
Are you calling a bottom in this trend? The data speaks for itself.
Now stop attacking someone who does not share your opinion. Those who read the forums can make up their own minds.
PS
"Geez... someone please do something about the downward spiral here..."
Since when is a different opinion a "downward spiral" that you are trying to censor? What's there to hide in Cleveland??
I could come up with a negative to point out: Tower City
Crocker Park, Beachwood Place, Legacy Village, and even the Westgate Mall redo... caused more 'damage' to Tower City then any population decrease.
No need to come downtown and shop when you have those places in your backyard. Tell me any of those malls, none of which were here 10-20 years ago, are doing poorly.
I'm not saying Cleveland is paradise. But to say we are no better now then we were 20 years ago is simply, imo, way off base.
Legacy, Beachwood Place and Crocker killed off Euclid Square and Randall Park among other shopping areas. Tower City was already in decline before Crocker or Legacy even opened and Beachwood opened in 1978. To say that these malls are what "damaged" Tower City is nonsense. Tower City probably peaked in the mid/late 90's and has been in decline since. You confuse cause and effect: suburban shopping did not kill Tower City/downtown; lack of people killed downtown. Retailers only followed their customers.
Decline of Tower City has to do with decline of the city's purchasing power...ie lack of people and lack of income. I'd keep a close eye on Tower City. If it can not make a comeback with the Casino basically attached to it and with East 4th two minutes away then this will just be another sign that every time one business opens in Cleveland another one closes.
And yes, suburban malls are doing ok but that's were the people/money are and will be in the future. There is hardly any retail in Cleveland proper to speak of and that is very indicative of the lack of money in the city to support it. Restaurants/bars yes but big retail, no. Unless the overall population of the area begins to increase again it is hard to argue that a resurgence is taking place. Most cities are also better today then they were 20 years ago, except Detroit! Crime is down nationally too though beginning to rise again.
Lastly, a very simple question: if all these areas that you and others post are "booming" and "unreal", then where are these people coming from if the population of both Cleveland and the MSA are lower today then they were 10 years ago?? Hmmm.......can it be all the tourists? Or maybe Clevelander's are just getting out more? Or maybe we're just re-arranging the proverbial deck chairs..ie opening a new business while another closes? So which is it: Clevelander's are spending more money going out, tourists are flooding the city, or new business is just taking away from old business? 'Cause you can't be improving in the macro sense when population continues to decrease unless money is coming from the outside...ie tourists/business travellers/etc. Food for thought....
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $53,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
