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Old 07-13-2012, 04:45 PM
 
3,330 posts, read 2,850,260 times
Reputation: 2757
Quote:
Originally Posted by bacaboy View Post
@Clevelend_Collector

My views are my own as anyone is well aware. As I posted elsewhere, I see no forum rule that states that ALL post need to be pro-Cleveland.
There's no forum rule that says you have to be even remotely factual in your arguments either. And I see you have again taken full advantage of that loophole.

Quote:
While you may deal in opinion as I do, I might add that the FACTS clearly support my point of view: a city with declining population in a region and state that are NOT business friendly. If one lives in Cleveland or RITA city, you pay a tax rate of at least 5.9% state and about 2% local. Those are top rates and they matter because it is the people/companies that bring the jobs who pay the TOP rate. Why will they come to Cleveland/Ohio with such high taxes?That is 7.9% total, and is MORE than living even in New York (but less than Manhattan...what a bargain!). Every day you read about another hike in real estate tax or income tax. And one wonders why Cuyahoga lose people to surrounding counties and Ohio loses people to other states.
Too bad the FACT is that 5.92% is the marginal state income tax rate you will pay if you make more than $204,200. Ohio Income Tax Rates and Tax Brackets, 2011-2012 <-- See! Facts! You ought to try it some time.

The Tax Foundation ranks Ohio #28 on the tax freedom chart (the higher the number, the quicker you are "free") and #27 on the tax burden per capita chart. NY state is #3 on both charts. Facts & Figures Handbook: How Does Your State Compare? | Tax Foundation <-- See! MORE facts! You catching on yet?

The truth is that, after deductions, the average Ohio-RITA taxpayer pays at a rate between 3.5 and 5.5% total between state and local taxes (some pay more, some pay less) and that Ohio is generally considered middle-of-the road when it comes to taxation. I make in the low-6 figures. After deductions and refunds for TY2011, I paid around 4.7% combined (RITA and state).

Quote:
So if you want to call a bottom for Cleveland, more power to you. What I see is a very slow decline that shows no sign of turning around. There are always good and bad things going on in any city/area. Maybe Cleveland can turn it around, but I do not see the fundamental reason that will cause this. Cheap living and a few good restaurants is not the answer. Jobs are and I don't see them coming. Anyone, like the OP, who is considering moving to this area should hear BOTH sides of the story.
There's no reason to call a bottom. Anyone with half an ounce of general knowledge knows why Cleveland hit hard times. It's been a 40-50 year progression in the transformation from heavy industry to something much more diversified. The supposed "boom" towns of the 70s, 80s, and 90s will cross their Rubicon one day too. Some of them already have (i.e., Phoenix). None of this detracts from the fact that Cleveland is ideally located on a ported waterfront, the busiest Interstate in the country (I-90) passes right through downtown, has a relatively mild climate (read: no real extremes), has weathered the nation's massive industrial decline without folding and is rejuvenating/gentrifying within the inner-city at a high rate, is cosmopolitan, has one of the best arts scenes in the country, has 2 major universities within its border and several others in the general metro area, has a massive supply of fresh water, has 3 professional sports teams, has a great food scene, has good entertainment options, has $6 billion in development occurring within its borders, and, whether you like it or not, a lot of good employment opportunites. You obviously haven't focused your career aspirations in the right place. For the right people, there is much available.

As I've stated many times, our area's problems are well documented (ad nauseum, actually). If you haven't found your niche, it may not be the right place for you. But, to state that you have the answer, and that answer is "DOOM!" ...well, to those of us who have found a way, it's a downright misguided and narrow view of our metro.
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
2,732 posts, read 1,741,476 times
Reputation: 2079
Cosmopolitan - Having constituent elements from all over the world or from many different parts of the world

I'd say that's pretty accurate! Cleveland People | Cleveland Ethnic Groups | Cleveland Cultures

Haha I found some irony in the Ctrl C Ctrl V statement...
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Austin
295 posts, read 150,163 times
Reputation: 335
Everybody, sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. First of all thanks to all for your recommendations. I wanted to check back in and give you a run down on how it went.

1. Friday - we arrive and check into hotel (Key Center Marriott) by 1 p.m. We take a brief walk to E. 4th and enjoy jalapeno wings confit and the pomme frites at Greenhouse Tavern. Highlights: It is breezy and 75 degrees (high in Austin was 102 the day before) and I tried my first Great Lakes beer - a pilsener. After sitting there for 5 minutes, I spot my first hipster riding by on a bicycle. Already looking like home!

2. After a quick nap (fiance was battling the flu) - we head out for dinner at Lola for celebratory birthday dinner. I had pork belly appetizer and pork loin entree (pig - the magical animal). Then hop in a cab and head to Velvet Tango room. Enjoyed a Moscow Mule and an Old Fashioned and listened to some cool jazz. As we were finishing up I heard the saxophone player getting asked by of the lady patrons to come to her place and listen to some old jazz records. Nice.

3. Saturday - hop in the car and head over to West Side Market. Found it to be lively, crowded, impressive. Really enjoyed the street fair across the street and the general vibe of the area. Loved the downtown view from Ohio City

4. Hop back in the car (where 5 people are lined up for my parking spot) and head east for some sightseeing. Loved the University Circle/Wade Oval area. Just beautiful. We park the car in a garage a block off Mayfield and head to Little Italy for the Feast.

After a sausage and peppers and cannoli we get back in the car and drive through Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights areas. I believe it was as I was circling around Shaker Square that the little lady declares that she officially wants to move here.

5. Flu symptoms start peaking and I have to take her back to the hotel. After she goes down for a nap, I grab my camera and head to the water front to catch a glimpse of my first great lake.

6. Decide that I can't stand it and spend the $20 for a couple of hours in the Rock Hall. That was really neat, but you kinda get numb after the first 30 minutes. "Hm, there's the jacket from the Thriller video. Neat."

7. Head back and leave for dinner at Hodges. I don't remember the entree, but can state that the lobster corn dogs are the Best Thing I've Ever Eaten. However, flu symptoms are peaking at this point and we have to call it a night.

8. Sunday - wake up and check out of hotel. Hop in the car for lunch at Happy Dog. Fiance is feeling better and declare this joint to be the highlight of her trip. Says it reminds her of a Tarantino flick. More sightseeing and head to the airport for departure.

My impressions:

A. Overall - you have a damn fine city and don't let anyone tell you different. I'm a total outsider with no ties and have no reason to gloss over anything. I hear alot of bad things, but when you ask questions, you usually find out it's from people who've never even been there. Even my friends in Austin were like, "Why the hell are you going to Cleveland?" "Have you ever been?" "Well...no. But I've heard." Just the general vibe was that it is a city stocked with amenities, warm friendly people and realness.

B. Downtown - I found downtown to be lively, safe and fun. Much better than many larger cities (read: Dallas).

C. Inner ring burbs - fantastic. Cleveland Heights, Shaker, Tremont, Lakewood. Just look like ideal places to live to me.

D. Area between downtown and inner ring burbs - Ooh. Here's where the problems are. It became apparent that the old, former blue-collar/manufacturing/warehouse area in this ring is what is going to have to develop next as downtown completes its transformation. It was a little sad seeing the abandonment of a former great era. I was intrigued by the look and feel of Euclid Ave with the BRT facilities. I'm a transportation engineer by profession, so I got to geek out on this a little bit. Hopefully this will help transform this corridor in the future.

E. The main negative - just a general negatively from the people I encountered about their city. I got a lot of questions from bartenders, people at the bar, etc. about why I would vacation in Cleveland, or even consider moving there. It was a little frustrating that I was having to school them on how good it really is. Negativity can feed negativity, and it looked to me to be one of the area's biggest challenges. IMO, the people there could stand to adopt just a SMALL fraction of the type of regional chauvinism you see here in Texas. Everything in Texas is not as rosy as people make it out to be, but you can't tell that to a Texan. That type of advocacy and chauvinism can be grating to an outsider, but it at least makes people try to do great things and makes people happy to live there. I'm not saying that doesn't exist in Cleveland, just that it could use more.

Anyway, that's my novel. Thanks so much again for all your help and recommendations. She and I are having some serious discussions about where are going to live in the future. She's really pushing Cleveland hard, and I certainly feel I could be happy there. I think by the first of the year, I'll have decided and be ready to start looking for jobs there if appropriate.
Attached Thumbnails
Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland-dsc_1908-web.jpg   Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland-dsc_1912-web.jpg   Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland-dsc_1913-web.jpg   Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland-dsc_1919-web.jpg   Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland-dsc_1925-web.jpg  

Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland-dsc_1926-web.jpg   Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland-dsc_1927-web.jpg   Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland-dsc_1936-web.jpg   Mid-August - Austin Visit to Cleveland-dsc_1937-web.jpg  
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:13 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 2,850,260 times
Reputation: 2757
^Perfect post.

"E. The main negative - just a general negatively from the people I encountered about their city. I got a lot of questions from bartenders, people at the bar, etc. about why I would vacation in Cleveland, or even consider moving there. It was a little frustrating that I was having to school them on how good it really is. Negativity can feed negativity, and it looked to me to be one of the area's biggest challenges. IMO, the people there could stand to adopt just a SMALL fraction of the type of regional chauvinism you see here in Texas. Everything in Texas is not as rosy as people make it out to be, but you can't tell that to a Texan. That type of advocacy and chauvinism can be grating to an outsider, but it at least makes people try to do great things and makes people happy to live there. I'm not saying that doesn't exist in Cleveland, just that it could use more."

If you move here, I think you will find that a lot of this can be attributed to a fair amount of outdated bombardment (i.e., if I have to hear about the 43 year old minor river fire again, I will break something). However, the rate of advocacy is growing and many people are beginning to double/triple down on the city (Michael Symon, Dan Gilbert, Sam McNulty, Dante Boccuzzi, Zack Bruell, etc.) when they could have gone elsewhere and, if it was 20-25 years ago, probably would have.

It's that old saying: If you're told something long enough, you're inclined to believe it regardless of whether it's true.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
3,520 posts, read 4,807,068 times
Reputation: 1360
Marshall,

Follow-up responses are always much appreciated -- and what a response!

First of all, thank you for the kind words. I'm very happen to hear you enjoyed yourselves in our fair city of Cleveland. It sounds like you hit many hot spots in town (i.e. Westside Market, Velvet Tango Room, Lola, Greenhouse, Little Italy, etc).

Funny you mention the Rock Hall -- I do not think I've ever recommended it to any out of town visitors before. Unless you are hardcore 1970's or 1980's rock lovers, it's not that overwhelming. Do not get me wrong, I'm glad we have it.

Next time you visit, or move here , definitely check out our gem of an Art Museum, Downtown Casino, Playhouse Square (1920's broadway show theaters), and our classical Orchestra.

I've lived many other places and states in my life, and it's only reinforced how good (did I mention cost of living to go along with these amenities??) I have it here in Cleveland.

Last edited by costello_musicman; 09-12-2012 at 05:23 PM..
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Old 09-12-2012, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Boston, MA
2,732 posts, read 1,741,476 times
Reputation: 2079
Wow, sounds like you did it right! Too bad that sickness might have dampened it a little bit, but I'm glad you enjoyed your time here! I hope you had such a good time that you just can't wait to move here! Or at least visit again.

I agree about some of the native negativity. Some of the most dedicated Clevelander friends I have are not even from Cleveland or Ohio at all! I think that some natives just grew up thinking that our city was no good because people made fun of it and our sports teams were no good (also something that has way too much of an impact sometimes on some people's moods... but that's a different story). So they just kinda stayed in their own neighborhoods and never went to see anything or anyone else. They really just don't know what they're missing! For example, last week I went with a friend to walk through the cultural gardens and around University Circle, then took the rapid over to Ohio City for dinner. My native Cleveland friend did not know a) that the cultural gardens existed or b) that the Red Line rapid even existed!

Thanks for the follow up! Nice pics!
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, OH
50 posts, read 34,446 times
Reputation: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall Gibson LP View Post
Everybody, sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. First of all thanks to all for your recommendations. I wanted to check back in and give you a run down on how it went.

1. Friday - we arrive and check into hotel (Key Center Marriott) by 1 p.m. We take a brief walk to E. 4th and enjoy jalapeno wings confit and the pomme frites at Greenhouse Tavern. Highlights: It is breezy and 75 degrees (high in Austin was 102 the day before) and I tried my first Great Lakes beer - a pilsener. After sitting there for 5 minutes, I spot my first hipster riding by on a bicycle. Already looking like home!

2. After a quick nap (fiance was battling the flu) - we head out for dinner at Lola for celebratory birthday dinner. I had pork belly appetizer and pork loin entree (pig - the magical animal). Then hop in a cab and head to Velvet Tango room. Enjoyed a Moscow Mule and an Old Fashioned and listened to some cool jazz. As we were finishing up I heard the saxophone player getting asked by of the lady patrons to come to her place and listen to some old jazz records. Nice.

3. Saturday - hop in the car and head over to West Side Market. Found it to be lively, crowded, impressive. Really enjoyed the street fair across the street and the general vibe of the area. Loved the downtown view from Ohio City

4. Hop back in the car (where 5 people are lined up for my parking spot) and head east for some sightseeing. Loved the University Circle/Wade Oval area. Just beautiful. We park the car in a garage a block off Mayfield and head to Little Italy for the Feast.

After a sausage and peppers and cannoli we get back in the car and drive through Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights areas. I believe it was as I was circling around Shaker Square that the little lady declares that she officially wants to move here.

5. Flu symptoms start peaking and I have to take her back to the hotel. After she goes down for a nap, I grab my camera and head to the water front to catch a glimpse of my first great lake.

6. Decide that I can't stand it and spend the $20 for a couple of hours in the Rock Hall. That was really neat, but you kinda get numb after the first 30 minutes. "Hm, there's the jacket from the Thriller video. Neat."

7. Head back and leave for dinner at Hodges. I don't remember the entree, but can state that the lobster corn dogs are the Best Thing I've Ever Eaten. However, flu symptoms are peaking at this point and we have to call it a night.

8. Sunday - wake up and check out of hotel. Hop in the car for lunch at Happy Dog. Fiance is feeling better and declare this joint to be the highlight of her trip. Says it reminds her of a Tarantino flick. More sightseeing and head to the airport for departure.

My impressions:

A. Overall - you have a damn fine city and don't let anyone tell you different. I'm a total outsider with no ties and have no reason to gloss over anything. I hear alot of bad things, but when you ask questions, you usually find out it's from people who've never even been there. Even my friends in Austin were like, "Why the hell are you going to Cleveland?" "Have you ever been?" "Well...no. But I've heard." Just the general vibe was that it is a city stocked with amenities, warm friendly people and realness.

B. Downtown - I found downtown to be lively, safe and fun. Much better than many larger cities (read: Dallas).

C. Inner ring burbs - fantastic. Cleveland Heights, Shaker, Tremont, Lakewood. Just look like ideal places to live to me.

D. Area between downtown and inner ring burbs - Ooh. Here's where the problems are. It became apparent that the old, former blue-collar/manufacturing/warehouse area in this ring is what is going to have to develop next as downtown completes its transformation. It was a little sad seeing the abandonment of a former great era. I was intrigued by the look and feel of Euclid Ave with the BRT facilities. I'm a transportation engineer by profession, so I got to geek out on this a little bit. Hopefully this will help transform this corridor in the future.

E. The main negative - just a general negatively from the people I encountered about their city. I got a lot of questions from bartenders, people at the bar, etc. about why I would vacation in Cleveland, or even consider moving there. It was a little frustrating that I was having to school them on how good it really is. Negativity can feed negativity, and it looked to me to be one of the area's biggest challenges. IMO, the people there could stand to adopt just a SMALL fraction of the type of regional chauvinism you see here in Texas. Everything in Texas is not as rosy as people make it out to be, but you can't tell that to a Texan. That type of advocacy and chauvinism can be grating to an outsider, but it at least makes people try to do great things and makes people happy to live there. I'm not saying that doesn't exist in Cleveland, just that it could use more.

Anyway, that's my novel. Thanks so much again for all your help and recommendations. She and I are having some serious discussions about where are going to live in the future. She's really pushing Cleveland hard, and I certainly feel I could be happy there. I think by the first of the year, I'll have decided and be ready to start looking for jobs there if appropriate.

First of all, I'm glad you had a nice time in Cleveland. Sorry about your wife-to-be getting sick. I'm glad you got out to see what our city had to offer, and it's about to offer more with the re-construction of The Flats, Medical Mart being build, Phase 2 of the casino. But, I feel you on the negativity of the people of Cleveland. A lot of people here in this city are negative because of being crapped on nationally by the media, celebs, comics and athletes, being ranked for the worst or one of the worst in something (i.e poorest city in America, The Most Misable City by Forbes, ESPN calling Cleveland "The Most Toturted Sports City"), corrupt politicians (that's everywhere), the LeBron "Decision", the river catching on fire (If somebody throws that up again, I'm gonna punch somebody). As well as the bad sports teams, and as one poster said on their post sports teams should not affect your mood or self-worth, it's a game not your life. It just sums up to that Clevelanders have heard the negative so long that they believe it, true or untrue. Plus, some feel that Cleveland should show itself off more.

In the summer, there are a lot of events such as The Puerto Rican Festival in the Muni Lot Downtown. Also, there's the Cleveland Classic in September, where two HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) go against each other at Browns Stadium. Those are some good events to go to. Most people who say, "There ain't nothing going on in Cleveland", most of them don't go anywhere or do anything but just stay at home and in their neighborhoods. I think Clevelanders need to get out more instead of limiting themselves. Again, I'm glad you enjoyed your stay, and let me be one of the first to say to you and your wife-to-be "Welcome to Cleveland".

P.S. -- What have people in Austin "heard" about Cleveland and from where or who?
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:44 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
5,850 posts, read 5,745,397 times
Reputation: 2873
Thanks for the follow up Marshall.

Re: negativity. It may be slightly more prevalent here then in many places, certainly more then many areas in Texas, because you are right: Texans are a proud bunch. But I think in MOST of the larger cities in the US there is a LARGE group of people that are generally very negative about where they live.
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
5,850 posts, read 5,745,397 times
Reputation: 2873
PS. Come back in February. If you don't hate that? Then think about moving...
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