cleveland or chicago (Cincinnati, Parma, Lakewood: how much, to buy, theatre)

[alexmarison]

Hi. Lets get down to some numbers. I got this from a Cleveland website (linked at the end) trying to paint our city in as best a light as possible, in spite of the facts:

"Cleveland’s population has been declining since the 1950s. Thirty-two other U.S. cities are now larger than Cleveland, once the sixth largest city in America...

Cleveland’s growth during the late 19 th and early 20 th centuries was fueled by immigrants who flocked to the city seeking jobs generated by the industrial revolution. Around the middle of the 20 th century the number of immigrants entering the city, as was also the case with other cities across the country, decreased. But where many cities experienced a rise in immigration during the later 20 th century, especially in terms of Hispanic and Asian immigrants, Cleveland did not see a dramatic increase in numbers. In fact in 2000 Cleveland had the lowest foreign-born population among the targeted cities studied by the Brookings Institution.

Over the years an increasing percentage of the city’s population has been non-white. In 1990 just over half of Cleveland’s residents were non-whites. During the 1990s that number grew to 61.2 percent..."

Going by the trend statistics they give behind the 10% rise in non-whites from 1990 to 2000, by 2010, African-Americans will make up at least 70% of the city's population and perhaps upwards of 80%, which is an inevitability, anyway, no matter how you look at it.

(link: Population)

[ritam2001]

Its been widely acknowledged that a large immigrant population is good for a city. And by this, not only the stereotypical types that one may envision -- lawn care, etc, but hardworking and successful engineers, doctors, and scientists that come over from Europe/Asia/India. In fact go to any successful large city and the multiculturalism will hit you in the face.

[The Cactus Leaguer]

Originally Posted by alexmarison

Hi. Lets get down to some numbers. I got this from a Cleveland website (linked at the end) trying to paint our city in as best a light as possible, in spite of the facts:

"Cleveland’s population has been declining since the 1950s. Thirty-two other U.S. cities are now larger than Cleveland, once the sixth largest city in America...

Cleveland’s growth during the late 19 th and early 20 th centuries was fueled by immigrants who flocked to the city seeking jobs generated by the industrial revolution. Around the middle of the 20 th century the number of immigrants entering the city, as was also the case with other cities across the country, decreased. But where many cities experienced a rise in immigration during the later 20 th century, especially in terms of Hispanic and Asian immigrants, Cleveland did not see a dramatic increase in numbers. In fact in 2000 Cleveland had the lowest foreign-born population among the targeted cities studied by the Brookings Institution.

Over the years an increasing percentage of the city’s population has been non-white. In 1990 just over half of Cleveland’s residents were non-whites. During the 1990s that number grew to 61.2 percent..."

Going by the trend statistics they give behind the 10% rise in non-whites from 1990 to 2000, by 2010, African-Americans will make up at least 70% of the city's population and perhaps upwards of 80%, which is an inevitability, anyway, no matter how you look at it.

(link: Population)

1. What's your point?

2. Where I come from, African-Americans and non-Americanized Eastern European immigrants would be considered marks of diversity (regardless of whether or not they recently immigrated to the US).

3. Nobody in their right mind would argue that Cleveland is more culturally diverse than Chicago. But by the same token, whether you are looking at statistics or simply driving through the neighborhoods, nobody in their right mind would argue than Cleveland is less culturally diverse than similar sized US metros. But if you want to argue that point, knock yourself out.

[BelieveInCleve]

alexmarison,

1. Now your just not making any sense at all. You are getting way off topic and changing the subject. I made my point and proved my point. I have no idea what point you are trying to make now.

2. Your stats are off yet again. There was an actual census taken last year and it showed that Cleveland was 53% black. Even if it was off, Cleveland is no more than 65% black now. Also, you are starting to sound racist now. What is wrong with Cleveland being a majority-black city? Do you have a problem with that or something? Also, dont try to debate stats with me. Ive been studying urban areas and everything that goes along with them including demographics for 5+ years, especially Cleveland. I know everything there is to know about the statistics.

3. I think we all know that Chicago is more diverse than Cleveland, there was never any argument there, but what you were saying is that Cleveland wasnt diverse at all. The fact is that Cleveland is the most diverse major city in the midwest besides Chicago and also the most diverse Metro and CSA in the midwest besides Chicago and possibly Detroit. Thats what I have been saying for a while now. So Cleveland is a very diverse city and area. I dont know why there is still a debate here. Your only purpose is bashing Cleveland and making Chicago sound like the best place in the world so I cannot take you seriously anymore.

[alexmarison]

Cleve440, if your such an expert and all the stats back up what you are saying, then link them. you gave one percentage figure out of the blue on which you have based telling me i was wong (besides your expert personal opinion). i admit, i gave a number too, based on memory, but when you challenged me on that point, i googled: cleveland demographics, and saw that everything i had been saying was vindicated (go back to my very first posts if you like and see). So my memory served me right, as well as my powers of deduction with regard to personally having lived in Clevleand for so long and, also, having experienced life in many other cities across the USA. Again, i refer you to the Brookings Institute study that said Cleveland was the least diverse city that they had looked at in the entire country. and i have quoted and linked the websites so you can verify them. but, instead of you or cactus seriously debating the facts i posted you still just maintain your personal opinions and numbers with no evidence, as if we are just supposed to have faith in you, because you say you are an expert. the thread is about comparing cleveland and chicago: i said cleveland sucks compared to chicago (having, at length, stated so in a very nice and fair way). And I only chimed in because i saw posts wherein people were acting like the Cleveland came close or had points about it that might make it better and that the choice was basically a toss up. In my opinion there is no comparison, and i wrote as much. you disagree, but for some reason i still can't grasp: i only see you trying to show cleveland is not so bad if you compare it a cincinnati or an indianapolis (and still don't even cite statistics for that, just pontificate your infallible opinion). Nice try, but not the point of the thread. I think even you agree with me on the essential point: there is no comparison between cleveland and chicago. Next topic.

[airics]

just curious of the ages of the posters on this topic, i am assuming in the 20s

[BelieveInCleve]

alexmarison,

You want stats? here they are: Cleveland city, Ohio - Fact Sheet - American FactFinder
-That is straight from the government census bureau, as you can see, my stats were correct. This is from 2006 (Note the population is 438,000 not 406,000, as stated in the official 2007 population estimate of the census)
http://www.city-data.com/city/Cleveland-Ohio.html
-Nearly same stats here, straight from the city-data page, I guess it was hard for you to look that up, despite us already being on that site...
List of U.S. cities with large African American populations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-Theres more.
List of U.S. metropolitan areas with large African-American populations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-This shows that Cleveland is one of the metros with the most African-Americans (which equals diversity), it shows #17, add Akron thats #11.
Moderator cut: linking to competitors sites is not allowed
-As you can see, this shows Cleveland/NE Ohio has the most Puerto Ricans of any area west of it besides Chicago, you can click on other ethnicities and most have a good population around Cleveland.

Need any more? Now about what you are saying, you never proved or showed stats that Cleveland was not diverse, your link had nothing to do with that. Your link showed 23 cities (not that many), and most of those cities were larger. Not to mention it was only about foreign born population, only one of the many factors of diversity. Based on your logic a 90%+ white-american city with a 6% foreign born population is more "diverse" than Cleveland, thats a joke. Within the links I provided look up all the other cities I mentioned besides Chicago and it proves Cleveland is much more diverse. I never said that Cleveland was more diverse than Chicago as I have stated...I dont know..like 10 times? Everything you said was not true, as you said Cleveland was 80%+ black and not diverse which none of your links backed that up, and I just disproved that by showing Cleveland to be 53% black (with a 2006 poll, not much has changed), and very diverse. Need I say more? I dont think so.

airics, yes I am 27. I realize this is slightly immature but I felt something had to be said about the false things that alexmarison was saying.

[airics]

i dont feel you are immature at all... the only thing i do feel (and this is only my opinion) is that there are alot of wishful hoping for cleveland. i too hope this city comes back, but i have seen this before with this city.. spend some money, get some people, area becomes bad, people leave... the city itself is in bad shape.. they need to concentrate on the schools and the crime...#7 on the most dangerous list is nothing to be proud of .. we could be the next detroit or st. louis..

[alexmarison]

Cleve440, that's more like it. But lets look at what you've linked us:

2 wikipedia charts (one of which has been flagged). the info in them really isn't probative, imo. i can't understand what they are saying or compare them to cut and dry numbers that are understandable. i am not a demographics expert, so maybe they require commentary.

as for the the link of the puerto rican communities - that was a joke, right? you state that cleveland has the highest puerto rican population of any city to its west, except for chicago. According to the map you linked, the only city west of cleveland that even has a peurto rican communiy IS chicago. but i knew that, besides i am puerto rican (PR). it is prety well known that the carribean islanders - the dominicans (NY), cubans (FL), haitians, jamaicans, puerto ricans (NY and CHI), etc. all live on the East coast and in south FL...and chicago, but nowhere else. Now, in the 1950s, when cleveland was a great city and a draw to immigrants it had plenty of immigrant communities, including puerto ricans; but they have since died out with everyone else. the cleveland area, though is still considered to have a PR communiy because of what Lorain City had done for them (where i also have lived, as i said before). they (the factories they used to be known for) actively went out in the 1950's and brought puerto ricans there, paying their way, fronting them housing and offerring other incentives. most of those factories, like the ones in cleveland that had been prospering it, have long since closed, so the once strong PR community has dwindled and spread throughout Lorain, Elyria, and Cleveland.

about the link to the US census info you linked. i have no comment. i accept it, because i am not an expert. but i note this:

"In 2000 the United States Census Bureau listed the city’s population at 478,403. Cleveland’s population loss during the 1990s was 5.4% compared to a loss of 8.9% during the 1980s...The city’s African-American population increased by 10,837 persons, from 235,405 in 1990 to 246,242 in 2000...Births among whites also exceeded the number of deaths by more than 9,300, but that coupled with a net out-migration of approximately 53,093 resulted in a decrease of 43,747 in the white population."

This was from the site i linked: the City Planning Commission of the City of Cleveland. your site says the population, as of 06', is 406,000, with 216,421 being African-American. That is a huge discrepency and break in trend. Maybe we should wait for the offical 10 year census by the Gov and not blindly go by their yearly Community Surveys - but i'm not an expert so, idk.

[BelieveInCleve]

alexmarison,

1. I added more than wikipedia links, they just mostly back up what the other link already says.

2. You just proved my point again. I stated that Cleveland/NE Ohio has the largest puerto rican community (population) of any area to the west besides Chicago, and it does. I am very well aware of the puerto rican community in and around Lorain and the steel mills situation, I grew up here I should know. Im also half puerto rican, as I stated. The puerto rican population around the Cleveland area has stayed relatively the same, however the hispanic population has went up a lot. The only difference is that the puerto rican community is slightly more spread out now, but there is still a community here, if you dont know that obviously you have never been on Pearl in Lorain (or pearl/25th in Cleveland). I dont get all my information just based on stats either, Ive been all over this area many times.

3. I already stated this, but Ill add the link now. This is the official 2007 population estimate from the same site: Cleveland city, Ohio - Population Finder - American FactFinder
As you can see its 438,000 not 406,000 like I already stated. Based on that number there should be 233,000 African-Americans in Cleveland at 53%. I dont see what that really has to do with any of this though yet you keep bringing it up.

Are you done now? I dont see what any of this has to do with the original topic. Look back on the thread, you are the one who originally brought up other cities and said Cleveland "sucked", after that you brought up stats that you made up yourself and happened to be very incorrect (theres a big difference between 53% and 80%, which you stated as a "fact"). I believe I made my point.