cleveland or chicago (Parma, Lakewood, Cleveland Heights: appointed, sales, real estate)

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by ClevelandRocks!!

TRANSPORTATION - Just recently in Oct. of 07' the northeast RTA was named the best public transportation in NORTH AMERICA by the American Public Transportation Association (APTA).

That makes no sense to me. Having used Cleveland's public transportation, as well as that of other cities, I would not rate it anywhere near "the best" given the criteria I think are important: geographic extensiveness, frequency of service, ease of use, etc.

Originally Posted by ClevelandRocks!!

Cleveland also has the only rail service from their airport straight into downtown...

That's just simply not true. Chicago has rail service straight into downtown from both Midway and O'Hare Airports, for example.

Originally Posted by ClevelandRocks!!

But the murder rate in 03' for chicago was 599 people and Chicago was named America's murder capital.

'03 was a long time ago. Since then Chicago's murder rate has dropped substantially. Cleveland, with one-sixth the population of Chicago, has already seen well over 100 murders this year, which means Cleveland's murder rate is higher than Chicago's on a per-capita basis.

And Chicago's murders are concentrated in the "bad" parts of town... those areas where the gangs have the most control. A person living in one of Chicago's more popular, affluent areas is not likely to notice.

Originally Posted by ClevelandRocks!!

You can have the same lifestlye however and it will be less stressful and cheaper in Cleveland.

Perhaps. But having lived in both cities for extended periods of time, there's a vibrancy and bustle, an energy -- a "big city" feel -- in Chicago that Cleveland just seems to lack. Last time I was in downtown Cleveland (just under a year ago) it felt really eerie and deserted, like a neutron bomb had just gone off or something. For a person who craves that big-city bustle, Cleveland is likely to be a disappointment.

And I wouldn't attempt to live in Cleveland without a car. That "same lifestyle" that Chicago offers is just too spread out in Cleveland. A recent ranking of "walkable cities" in the US placed Cleveland near the bottom.

For someone in the medical field, however, Cleveland does provide excellent job opportunities. I'll agree with you on that.

[BelieveInCleve]

Personally i think if you have the money that you should move to Chicago, but Cleveland puts up a good fight. They both have a lot of museums, and both have major sports teams. Chicago has a better rapid transit but Cleveland isnt too bad, it just needs to service a larger area. Cleveland has less traffic and has good highway access. The weather is about the same, but the winter weather in Chicago is generally 10 degrees colder than Clevelands, and they both get about the same amount of snow(40-50 in.). The crime is a lot higher in the city of Cleveland but Chicago isnt that safe. The Cleveland area and the Chicago area both have about the same crime rate.

Whatever city you choose youll be happy with you rdecision, but I think Chicago is slighty better than Cleveland.

[andrew61]

Actually, I've noticed that Chicago gets considerably less snow than Cleveland, especially if you compare it to Cleveland's eastern "snow belt" areas.

Lake-effect snow is much less common in Chicago as most of it tends to go in the other direction due to typical wind patterns. Michigan gets hit pretty hard with lake-effect snow, as does northern Indiana at times. Chicago proper, not so much, except when there's a good east or northeast wind coming in off the lake.

I don't know about Chicago being a full ten degrees colder in winter than Cleveland, but it is somewhat colder and the wind chills are harsher. Chicago tends to get more sunny days in winter, however, even when it's very cold.

[ohioan_17]

Originally Posted by ClevelandRocks!!

we have the largest concentration of museums within a square mile radius at University Circle, including the renouned Cleveland Museum of Art. University circle is also home to the Cleveland orchestra, named a top 5 orchestra in the nation. There are also numerous events, sports, concert venues, and entertainment opportunities.

Don't forget the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame

[Subway]

Originally Posted by Cle440

the winter weather in Chicago is generally 10 degrees colder than Clevelands, and they both get about the same amount of snow(40-50 in.).

That's inaccurate. For the three months of meteorological winter (December through February), Chicago's normal mean temperature (25.4) is only 3 degrees lower than Cleveland's (28.4). As for normal annual snowfall, Chicago's 38" is significantly less than Cleveland's 63". BTW, contrary to popular belief, Chicago is actually a little less windy than Cleveland. Chicago's annual average wind speed is 10.3 MPH and Cleveland's is 10.5 MPH; for meteorological winter, Chicago's is 11.3 MPH and Cleveland's is 12.0 MPH.

Cleveland Temperature Data: http://mcc.sws.uiuc.edu/climate_midw...1657_tsum.html

Cleveland Snowfall Data: http://mcc.sws.uiuc.edu/climate_midw...1657_ssum.html

Chicago Temperature Data: http://mcc.sws.uiuc.edu/climate_midw...1549_tsum.html

Chicago Snowfall Data: http://mcc.sws.uiuc.edu/climate_midw...1549_ssum.html

Wind Data: http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...d/avgwind.html

[TheProf]

andrew61 said - If you want to go car-less and rely on public transit/cabs, Chicago is better by far, particularly in the areas closest to the lake... more train routes, more frequent service, etc. Cleveland has public transit but the wait can be pretty long... on Sundays many bus routes run only once an hour or less. It's also harder to go car-free in Cleveland because things to do (culture, restaurants, shopping, etc.) are spread out and require traveling great distances. If you want to shop at a department store or go see a first-run movie, for example, you'll likely have to travel to the suburbs.

I disagree.

The old: ‘everything is spread out and you'll have to go the suburbs’ sounds like something (I'm not saying you, personally) one of those suburban city/Cleveland haters would say. Tell me what retail, other than the super high-end joints like Beachwood Place's Nordstrom (only one in NE Ohio) and Saks (only one in the State) are in the burbs?

A rather left-handed 'compliment' by you that: "Cleveland has public transit" ... yeah, so does Dubuque... Fact is, car-less is not a hassle at all in several in and near-city neighborhoods. (in the late 1990s a national and local "green" group published a book called a guide to being "Car-free in Cleveland" (Boston and a few other good-transit cities had similar books) – think they’d have done that if Cleveland was as you described?)… I've done lived car-free and had friends who've done it...

Ohio City, to name one, is right across the river from downtown -- on a nice day and if you're up to it, you can walk the mile or so downtown across one of the scenic bridges. But aside from that, the compact neighborhood is crisscrossed by about a dozen bus routes and has the Red Line rapid transit that directly serves it. Plus, being so close to downtown, many cabbies troll Ohio City as if it were an extension of downtown. And in Ohio City you have both Dave’s supermarket and the historic West Side Market for cheap/fresh produce, meats, baked goods, etc. Along the Red Line rapid there’s Tower City (a 1-stop hop over the Cuyahoga river) with the usual mall stores plus some surprises, like Brooks Bros and an 11-screen cine-a-plex. And don’t forget, aside from dozens of high-end restaurants and clubs, downtown has 2 of its own supermarkets with a 3rd targeted for the new development rising on the Flats East Bank which will be directly served by its own rapid transit station… There are big box stores within walking distance of the Red Line like Home Depot and Target (W. 117) and K-Mart (West Park) and probably more. Also, the new Steelyards Commons down the way in the industrial Flats has those stores, plus more (like a Wal-Mart) if you’re into that thing. Downtown, itself, Shaker Square, Little Italy, U. Circle, Edgewater and Coventry offer similar advantages to Ohio City. (btw, you can hop a train to Shaker Square for 6 more movie screens – and another Dave’s supermarket – if you so please; it’s that easy.

We should also mention that that Red Line also directly serves Hopkins Int’l Airport and University Circle, which is one of the greatest concentrations of high-quality arts in culture in this county – the same arts & culture you say is dispersed widely in the suburbs. Btw, you go out of your way to note the Chicago El has more lines than Cleveland’s Rapid – could it be that, well, Chicago’s core city has just under 3 million people while Cleveland’s is less than 500K – that means Chicago city is about 6 times as large as Cleveland (and it’s metro area is more than 3-times as large).

So really, on this score, I don't know which Cleveland you're talking about (Tennessee maybe?).

Also Andrew, as to you’re desolate/neutron bomb comment, that’s not always true – Cleveland like most other medium-sized cities has high-activity in pockets – obviously, you haven’t experienced the recent explosion along E. 4th Street in Gateway, … among others.

Also Andrew, first you might want to acknowledge that Cleveland is not Chicago but, on it's scale, offers a pretty nice alternative. Don't forget, there's a lot of added hassles to living in Chicago: traffic, expense, distances and, yes, even crowds. Don't get me wrong, I positively LOVE Chicago -- it's my 2nd favorite city (gotta support the home front 1st, though). And while, obviously, the density and overall excitement isn't here, I've heard more than a few expatriate Chicagoans say: Cleveland = Chicago - traffic jams.

[Subway]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Tell me what retail, other than the super high-end joints like Beachwood Place's Nordstrom (only one in NE Ohio) and Saks (only one in the State) are in the burbs?

I don't mean to detract from your very informative post, but there are two other Saks Fifth Avenue stores in Ohio -- one in the heart of downtown Cincinnati and one in the Polaris area on the north side of Columbus. http://www.saksfifthavenue.com/stores/stores.jsp

[TheProf]

^Thanks Subway, I stand corrected... I know the Beachwood Place, for years, used to put out that info for years... I'm glad for Ohio that -- esp the other 2 C's -- that all the high end stores aren't centered around Cleveland... In fact, kudos to Cincy for doing what Cleveland seems inept to do these days -- puting high-end retail where it should be: DOWNTOWN!

[andrew61]

Where to begin, where to begin?

Originally Posted by TheProf

Tell me what retail, other than the super high-end joints like Beachwood Place's Nordstrom (only one in NE Ohio) and Saks (only one in the State) are in the burbs?

I don't know... Macy's? Dillard's? Sears? I'm old enough to remember a time when downtown Cleveland had a fine assortment of department stores, and the streets were crowded with throngs of shoppers. That's a downtown Cleveland that no longer exists, nor do I expect it to return in my lifetime.

There is Tower City and the Galleria, of course -- somewhat upscale indoor malls that weren't there when I was a kid -- but they seem to be struggling. The Galleria in particular seemed to have a lot of vacancies last time I was there.

Originally Posted by TheProf

A rather left-handed 'compliment' by you that: "Cleveland has public transit" ... yeah, so does Dubuque... Fact is, car-less is not a hassle at all in several in and near-city neighborhoods. (in the late 1990s a national and local "green" group published a book called a guide to being "Car-free in Cleveland" (Boston and a few other good-transit cities had similar books) – think they’d have done that if Cleveland was as you described?)… I've done lived car-free and had friends who've done it...

So have I (lived carfree in Cleveland) and I found it to be a hardship compared to going carfree in Chicago.

I have a friend who lives in Lakewood -- considered one of the better places in the Cleveland area for those wishing to go carfree -- right off the 55X Clifton busline. I've observed his lifestyle and can't believe what he puts up with. He has no laundry facilities at home and so spends his Sundays doing all his laundry and grocery shopping, and with the infrequency of the bus runs, it ends up being an all-day excursion. Miss the bus? Wait an hour 'til the next one. No thanks.

On my last couple visits to Cleveland (one of which consisted of staying at this same friend's house for a couple weeks) I decided not to rent a car like I usually do but to rely on walking and public transit instead. I found myself spending an inordinate amount of time waiting for buses, and concluded that moving back to Cleveland and living carfree simply wasn't an option.

I noticed, for example, that even on the 55X Clifton line -- probably the best in the city -- quite a few bus runs had been cut, and the bus ran much more infrequently than it had when I still lived there (I moved away in the mid-90s). About the only real improvement RTA had made that I could see was the introduction of the Community Circulators -- I thought Lakewood's was excellent and really useful. Well, there was the new Waterfront Line also, which I rode but found to be rather pointless.

Originally Posted by TheProf

Ohio City, to name one, is right across the river from downtown...

Yes, it's trendy and hip and historical and convenient and has Dave's and the West Side Market (a genuine Cleveland gem, BTW) and all that, and many of the restored old houses are absolutely stunning, but much of it is still too gritty for some, and crime is still a really big issue. There is still nothing in Cleveland equal to Chicago neighborhoods like Old Town and Lincoln Park... Ohio City is as close as it gets, but still has a long way to go, IMHO.

Originally Posted by TheProf

Plus, being so close to downtown, many cabbies troll Ohio City as if it were an extension of downtown.

If that's true, that's certainly a new development since I left town. When I lived in Cleveland, cabbies didn't "troll" anywhere. You could catch a cab in front of a downtown hotel or at the airport, but otherwise you had to call in advance if you needed one.

Originally Posted by TheProf

And in Ohio City you have both Dave’s supermarket and the historic West Side Market for cheap/fresh produce, meats, baked goods, etc. Along the Red Line rapid there’s Tower City (a 1-stop hop over the Cuyahoga river) with the usual mall stores plus some surprises, like Brooks Bros and an 11-screen cine-a-plex. And don’t forget, aside from dozens of high-end restaurants and clubs, downtown has 2 of its own supermarkets with a 3rd targeted for the new development rising on the Flats East Bank which will be directly served by its own rapid transit station… There are big box stores within walking distance of the Red Line like Home Depot and Target (W. 117) and K-Mart (West Park) and probably more. Also, the new Steelyards Commons down the way in the industrial Flats has those stores, plus more (like a Wal-Mart) if you’re into that thing.

Yes, that's all very well and good. But if you want, say, Thai or Indian food, you have to travel, either to Lakewood or else to the eastern suburbs (Heights, etc.), which requires traversing vast distances across some of the city's most sketchy and desolate neighborhoods.

(BTW, the biggest "surprise" I found during my last visit to Tower City was the presence of a Dollar Store... What's that doing in a supposedly "upscale" mall?)

Originally Posted by TheProf

(btw, you can hop a train to Shaker Square for 6 more movie screens – and another Dave’s supermarket – if you so please; it’s that easy.

Again, a long, dreary ride through the desolation of Cleveland's East Side.

That's exactly what I was talking about when I said you could probably find nearly anything you want in Cleveland, but everything is too spread out. Most of the city proper consists of long, vast stretches of desolation punctuated only every now and then by small pockets of bustling economic activity, the best of which usually lasts for only a block or two before the desolation sets in again. Beyond that, most everything is located in the suburbs.

Originally Posted by TheProf

We should also mention that that Red Line also directly serves Hopkins Int’l Airport and University Circle, which is one of the greatest concentrations of high-quality arts in culture in this county – the same arts & culture you say is dispersed widely in the suburbs. Btw, you go out of your way to note the Chicago El has more lines than Cleveland’s Rapid – could it be that, well, Chicago’s core city has just under 3 million people while Cleveland’s is less than 500K – that means Chicago city is about 6 times as large as Cleveland (and it’s metro area is more than 3-times as large).

Oh, bosch. Cleveland's a large enough town that its rail service should be more comprehensive than it is. As it stands now, Cleveland rail takes you very few places.

BTW, back when I was living in Lakewood, my roommate, who had no car, used to do a lot of the "cultural" stuff on the East Side in the evenings, and always took public transportation. One night he got mugged at the University Circle rapid station. That didn't exactly make me want to give up my car.

Originally Posted by TheProf

Also Andrew, as to you’re desolate/neutron bomb comment, that’s not always true – Cleveland like most other medium-sized cities has high-activity in pockets – obviously, you haven’t experienced the recent explosion along E. 4th Street in Gateway, … among others.

Yes, on my last visit home I saw all the new bars, nightclubs, bowling alleys, etc., with their colorfully lit signs... along with desolate, deserted streets. That's what inspired my "neutron bomb" comment.

Originally Posted by TheProf

Also Andrew, first you might want to acknowledge that Cleveland is not Chicago but, on it's scale, offers a pretty nice alternative.

Yes, quite possibly, for some. And nothing I've said should be construed as knocking Cleveland in any way. I certainly realize many people living in Cleveland genuinely like it there. I was simply considering the OP's concerns and giving him my honest assessment, based on my extensive experience actually living in both cities. And, if you'll recall, he did live in Chicago sometime ago. There's nothing wrong with promoting Cleveland as a desirable place to live... I'm just leery of giving someone who's never lived there a totally false impression and risking their disappointment. I believe in being realistic and telling it like it is, both positive and negative.

The OP said he wanted to live carfree. My experience living in Cleveland was that, except for commuting to and from my weekday 9-5 job downtown, public transportation wasn't particularly convenient to use. I simply responded to the poster's concerns honestly given my own experience.

Originally Posted by TheProf

Don't forget, there's a lot of added hassles to living in Chicago: traffic,

Yes, traffic is generally terrible here. But that's all just part of the bustle and energy of an urban area -- lots of people with lots of places to go.

Originally Posted by TheProf

expense,

Compared to Cleveland, yes. Compared to other cities in Chicago's league, however, it's surprisingly cheap. It's all relative.

Originally Posted by TheProf

distances

If you have to commute downtown to or from the suburbs, yes. But if you work downtown and live there or, say, along the north lakefront in the more popular areas, distance is not an issue. I live in the Lakeview/Wrigleyville area, for example, and 90-95 percent of everything I'd ever want to do in Chicago is within six miles of my home, and easily accessible.

Originally Posted by TheProf

and, yes, even crowds.

Again, part of the bustle and energy and general ambience of urban living. Many people thrive on that.

Yes, those conditions can be stressful at times. But I'd rather deal with that than the eerieness of standing on Public Square waiting for a bus on a Saturday afternoon and it's so deathly quiet I could hear a pin drop. To me that's just not the way the center of a major city ought to be. Urban living should not mean moving about in a giant ghost town.

Originally Posted by TheProf

Don't get me wrong, I positively LOVE Chicago -- it's my 2nd favorite city (gotta support the home front 1st, though). And while, obviously, the density and overall excitement isn't here, I've heard more than a few expatriate Chicagoans say: Cleveland = Chicago - traffic jams.

The native Chicagoans I know who have been to Cleveland generally have a favorable impression of the place, yes. But they tend to view it as a "small town".

And in all my years of living in Cleveland, I don't recall ever meeting more than maybe two or three transplanted Chicagoans living there. Yet here in Chicago I've run across many, many transplanted Clevelanders. That tells me something.

[TheProf]

^wow Andrew, you "War & Peace"-ed me with your response, which I greatly appreciate. I hear your comments, but don't quite agree... I'm sure I'll get into more detail later. One thing you said is about Shaker Sq. -- about how dreary it is to get there. My point was its convenience by train. Sure, looking out the window is dreary, but you're there in 12-13 mins from Public Sq; and not much longer from popular West Side areas after a train or bus change at Tower City... Chicago has neighborhoods away from downtown too that require travel --- look at Bucktown/Wickertown -- a great area which, to me, is like a bigger Ohio City. It's a quick ride, but a not so pleasant one, through the Blue Line tunnel and stations (some of which are downright crappy and dingy). And we won't even talk about traveling to the great Hyde Park neighborhood -- a lively island amidst miles of crime & poverty -- which great though it is, I'll take Cleveland's University Circle and it's closeness to such areas as Little Italy and the great Heights area, anytime...

I think your comments about Public Sq are a tad exaggerated. It's not Michigan Avenue -- no one is saying that -- but hearing a pin drop? Also, let's not forget that inside Chicago's Loop -- the actual train lines -- isn't always the most lively scene, particularly after 5, either (despite it's huge size advantage over Cleveland)...

You also didn't mention that Cleveland's got the fastest growing downtown residential base of any Midwest city outside Chi-town.

About the only real improvement RTA had made that I could see was the introduction of the Community Circulators -- I thought Lakewood's was excellent and really useful. Well, there was the new Waterfront Line also, which I rode but found to be rather pointless.

The Circulators are a hit and, I believe, the Lakewood one is the most popular. The Waterfront Line is getting a lot of criticism and, I’ll admit, outside of big events, like Browns games, the Air Show or Tall Ships festival at N.C. Harbor, or the few concerts, it isn’t used much. But it was supposed to spark development – and finally is. Scott Wolstein’s new mixed-use/high density Flats East Bank development will straddle the Waterfront Line and, I’m sure, many residents and visitors will use the Waterfront Line.

BTW, the biggest "surprise" I found during my last visit to Tower City was the presence of a Dollar Store... What's that doing in a supposedly "upscale" mall?

Tower City has slipped some, I’ll admit, but let’s not forget, there’s a Payless Shoe Source front and center on the Magnificent Mile just north of the Chicago River bridge. Low-end retail sometimes sneaks into high-end areas. (and let’s not forget the huge Mickey-D’s (yeah, Chicagoland’s it’s home but…) right in the middle of ritzy Water Tower Place – it happens).

Unfortunately, though, you seem to be focusing on the negatives. What about the Ritz Carleton and the upscale restaurants it’s presence (and the Renaissance nearby) has spawned? I grew up when Euclid, with Higbee’s, May’s and Bond’s, was great, but also, remember that nobody lived down there, but now more and more people do. Prospect was a dump and, now, it’s growing as a prime residential street. And once that dreaded construction ends on Euclid for bus rapid transit (it appears to finally be winding up), the street will grow again. (to E. 4th Street’s credit, it has grown and thrived amidst the Euclid construction chaos)

You make Chicago’s el sound like New York’s subway in terms of comprehensiveness… it isn’t… As nice is the el is (well, before it’s recent, er, structural problems causing it to often be the Chicago Snail-el), there are wide swaths of the City it doesn’t reach/doesn’t serve well, like most of Lincoln Park and much of the Northwest side. It’s a huge, huge spread out city and much of it is dependent on buses. Even on Michigan Ave, non-drivers must use buses or walk; the el’s not an option as it’s several blocks away in most cases.

All can say about your E. 4th/neutron bomb comment is, you must have caught the town on a very bad night. I make it a point, sometimes, to hop a Rapid train down on an off night – say a Tuesday when there’re no sports teams in town. Again, we are in no way Chicago, but I always find a buzz down there. Maybe there’s not wall-to-wall people, but there’s some foot traffic and the restaurants themselves are usally well peopled. Cleveland’s a work in progress. To have the tag of “poorest city” recently, to have so many big companies (like Standard Oil and LTV Steel, to name a few) leave and/or fold and to be doing as well as we are, is a testament to our tenacity… Look at Detroit which, while there’s some progress, is not nearly as strong as we are – and Detroit’s twice Cleveland’s size.

Also, you apparently weren’t on E. 4th Street last summer when, for the first time, they closed it off from auto traffic and expanded patios – even on non-sports weekday nights, there’s were patrons and foot-traffic til the closing hours around 12 midnight.

And yes, I love the craziness and crowds of Chicago, too. Walking along Michigan Ave is as exciting an urban experience as you can get in this country... But try driving to O'Hare at most times. Or try running up to grab a friend and Evanston for that party in South Loop during rush hour -- Cleveland looks pretty good pretty fast... Seriously, though, I just say you can get some of that in Cleveland which is a city you can get your arms around. And it’s not like the city is as dead as you paint it, even downtown. In fact, in terms of suburbs, neighborhoods, architecture, culture and lifestyle, it’s one of the most diversified and interesting cities in this country – and, yes, I do travel around.