cleveland or chicago (Akron, Lorain, Elyria: 2010, schools, most dangerous)

[BelieveInCleve]

I agree with TheProf.

alexmarison, you are pretty much 100% wrong. If anything its the people who live here and havent (or sometimes have) been other places who are bashing it the most, they are not partial to it at all. What you stated is just your opinion.

Ive been to many areas across the country, just to name a few: NYC, NJ, South Jersey, Buffalo/Niagara Falls, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Detroit, all over Ohio, Michigan, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Denver, Indianapolis and all over Indiana, Washington DC, Baltimore, etc etc etc. After being to all those places, some for long periods of time, I still love NE Ohio and the Cleveland area. The Cleveland Area is paradise to a lot of places I have been to, and has a ton of things to do compared to a lot of places. Your opinion is your opinion, but dont ever state it as a fact because there are millions of people who would disagree with you, with their "opinion".

[alexmarison]

Originally Posted by TheProf

alexmarison,

your post is unnecessarily argumentative because you set out a black-n-white false premise to advance your argument: Cleveland sucks as a place to live and those who disagree with this are partial, local-yokels who know of nothing outside their own limited Cleveland-world... So no, your premise is bogus as you set up a false premise.

I can't tell what you think my premise is, or what you think is false about it. It has been established by census data that Cleveland is the poorest big city in America (1 million people +); and also that Cleveland proper (the city) is about 80% black (I'm not racists one bit, its just a fact: my Granfather is in fact black Domincian). The first tier of suburbs outside cleveland are no better than cleveland: some mostly all black, some mostly all white - the only difference being these families are on average slightly better off. One exception is the adjacent suburb of Lakewood. It is mostly white, but many are affluent and there are many beautiful houses along the lakefront there, and there are many ethnic Irish: though there are like 2 or 3 Irish pubs on every busy block, yet no ethnic Irish eateries or stores, just some fastfood and other franchise restaurants, like perkins. In fact, even in Lakewood there are many vacant store fronts. But there is also a night club there that is popular. Lakewood is not great, but if Cleveland at least had other suburbs like it, I would not say it sucked so bad.

And again, I do not say Cleveland sucks, absolutely speaking, but only relative to the vast majority of other big cities in the USA. This is my opinion and argument; and you apparantly agree 100% with it; yet it seems you are only offended by my characterization of Cleveland in the process. To this, I say, again, I have no hometown love for Cleveland, like you obviously do so I might seem cold and uncaring when I put it down in comparison, even though i do so rightly. You say you live near New York City: you know diversity first-hand and know how fun it can be. You know great food and the luxury and fascination of having several great ethnic or traditional american dives on every block to eat and hang out. And you should know the lack of comparitve diversity in Cleveland: namely that Cleveland is in fact about 80% black, no more real China town or Slavic Village, much less any other ethinic neighborhood to speak of (except the still great Little Italy near case, though the 2 other West-side little Italies are all but dead and gone). Greater Cleveland is basically, in comparsion, just a black and/or white place, literally and figuratively: what is wrong with that premise?

If I were from here though, or black or white (I'm Latino), I might feel exactly as you do: I would agree Cleveland sucks "in comparison" to other big citites outside of middle America, as you do, but not use the word "suck" and bristle at anyone who did. As for Cleve440 who says he's been to almost every city in the USA and still thinks Cleveland is great and one of the best: I have nothing to say, you are entitled to that very small minority opinion.

[airics]

Cleveland's population is nowhere near one million.. hasn't been for a long time.Cleveland leads big cities in population loss, census figures show - Cleveland Metro News – The Latest Breaking News, Photos and Stories from The Plain Dealer

[alexmarison]

Your right airics, and i noticed you mentioned that before in response to someone's claim that clelveland proper had 2.4 million. The city itself has like 450,000, i think, as you said before. that sounds about right. And it used to be alot more but its population has been steadily declining for decades now, with no significant trends of increase. but when reports are published concerning the "big cities" cleveland is always included, as well a smaller cities, and the lower limit i recall them giving is a population of 1 million, so i think this refers to the greater metropolitan area - which for cleveland, probably still does not match the number that was being exaggerated as the city's population proper. Of note is that Cleveland could hold at least 2 or 3 times its current population, easily, because there are so many vacancies and abandoned and delapidated houses and apartment buildings in the city. I think in the 1950's, the population of the city was a highly diverse and robust 1 million, if i'm not mistaken.

[BelieveInCleve]

alexmarison, again you are wrong about many things.

The most obvious is that your facts are very off. Cleveland is not over a million people. The population of the city of Cleveland is 440,000 the metro is 2.3 million and the CSA is 2.9 million. Secondly, Cleveland is not 80% black...which you stated as a "fact". Thats Detroit and Gary level, Cleveland is a majority black city but its only about 53% not 80%.

Cleveland is also very diverse for a midwest city. Compare the demographics of Cleveland to: Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St. Louis, Kansas City, Des Moines, Omaha, Minneapolis/St. Paul etc. and you will see what I mean. The only areas more diverse in the midwest are Chicago, and maybe Detroit. Obviously you havent seen the huge population of hispanics (mostly puerto rican) in Lorain and the near westside of Cleveland. There is also a huge African-American community in Cleveland and surrounding areas and ethnic areas like Italian, Polish, etc. I am also latino (half Puerto-Rican/half white) myself, so dont even start with that. Obviously Cleveland is not in its prime and not doing that well lately, but you are very off in a lot of things that you said.

[alexmarison]

Cleve440, we are in agreement now on clevelands population figures. but i do not believe for a second that for every african-american in cleveland, there is also a white person. If you take into account all the suburbs, that is the whole metro area, then yes, i can see where one would get a number close to 50-50. Secondly, before i migrated over to cleveland's west-side, i lived in Lorain city, so i am very familiar with both the areas you say have latino communities. I only have one word: you've got to be kidding me! Go to the puerto rican neighborhood in Chicago: that is a purto rican community, then go to Mexcian Village: that is another veritable city within a city; same with Chicago's China Town, Little India, Polish Town, etc. And not only that: the races are not at all confined to those neighborhoods, they live everywhere in the city: it is not just all black or all white outside the ethnic neighborhoods. Anyway, as I said though, you will come away with a more rosey picture if you put Cleveland side by side with most other mid-western cities. Nevertheless, Cleveland is still the poorest and fasting dying of them all, acoording to census info.

[The Cactus Leaguer]

Originally Posted by alexmarison

Cleve440, we are in agreement now on clevelands population figures. but i do not believe for a second that for every african-american in cleveland, there is also a white person. If you take into account all the suburbs, that is the whole metro area, then yes, i can see where one would get a number close to 50-50. Secondly, before i migrated over to cleveland's west-side, i lived in Lorain city, so i am very familiar with both the areas you say have latino communities. I only have one word: you've got to be kidding me! Go to the puerto rican neighborhood in Chicago: that is a purto rican community, then go to Mexcian Village: that is another veritable city within a city; same with Chicago's China Town, Little India, Polish Town, etc. And not only that: the races are not at all confined to those neighborhoods, they live everywhere in the city: it is not just all black or all white outside the ethnic neighborhoods.

This is utter and complete nonsense. Ethnic groups tend to cling together, period, particularly in older communities. Where there is no critical mass for a community, ethnic groups are most likely to be distributed by their individual economic class. The only unique aspect of Chicago and New York in this regard is the fact that they are so massive in comparison to Cleveland (and other similar-sized metros) that they could (and still can) accomodate a wider mix of sustainable ethnic communities.

Cleveland is ethnically diverse in comparison to most cities that are around the same size (1.5m to 3m metro). Since you claim to be someone who has lived in metro areas that are about as diverse as a loaf of Wonder Bread, this should be obvious to you.

[The Cactus Leaguer]

My apologies for the harsh tone of my last message. It's just hard for me to stomach hearing someone say that Cleveland is not ethnically diverse. I live in Portland which is about the same size as Cleveland but is about 99.9% WASP (OK that's a slight exaggeration but not by much). Cleveland may not be as diverse as Chicago or New York but I have been to virtually every top 30 metro and Cleveland is more diverse than most.

[BelieveInCleve]

alexmarison,

I got those off of actual statistics, which Im guessing you are not familiar with. I never said Cleveland was half black and half white, Here are my stats: 53% Black, 35% White, 12% Other (9% Hispanic all races). Compare that to any other large midwest city except Chicago and that is VERY diverse. Not just that but are surrounding area is also very diverse. Unlike most large midwest cities (and other areas) where the whole area outside of the main city is 90%+ white, we are very diverse. Elyria, Lorain, Akron, Canton, and a lot of the immediate Cleveland suburbs (especially Eastside) all have large black populations. Also Lorain has a very large hispanic population (21%), and the highest percentage in Ohio. Cleveland/Lorain/Youngstown also has the largest puerto rican population of any area to the west (thats literally 90%+ of the country) except Chicago.

Chicago is bigger so its obviously going to be more diverse, like I said earlier, if you have the money then move to Chicago. But Chicago and Cleveland have a lot more in common than they do differences. Cleveland is the most diverse and world class city and area in the Entire Midwest except Chicago and Maybe (big maybe) Detroit. Chicago and Cleveland actually seem out of place to me, they seem much more like east coast cities with the diversity and everything which is unseen in midwest cities. Cleveland is not doing that great economically right now, but wait a little bit, we are a hidden gem and the only true "lil Chicago".

[1watertiger]

metro cleveland is represented by over 100 nationalities and 88 languages are still spoken. my family came from outside Prague chech republic. i currently live in a inner-ring suburb (parma) which probably has one of our countries largest ukrainian populations....i would bet less than 10 cities in the country have more diversity than cleveland...