Does Pittsburgh feel the need... (Cleveland, Youngstown: house, bankrupt, school districts)
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I grew up in Youngstown and always associated more with Cleveland than Pittsburgh. I'm a fan of all the Cleveland sports teams, and growing up I always went to Cleveland, rather than Pittsburgh, for daytrips, events and concerts. I've lived in Pittsburgh (in the city - Southside) since graduating college last June. I just got back from a great weekend in Cleveland. My girlfriend and I stayed Downtown, went to the Cavs game Saturday night, the Browns game yesterday and did a bunch of shopping the rest of the time. Since Cleveland is fresh on my mind, I thought I'd weigh in on this topic with factors that I think are important, and which city/metro does them better.
"Big city" feel: Cleveland wins this one pretty easily. Downtown Cleveland is big, walkable and vibrant. There were people out and about all weekend, something you don't really see in downtown Pittsburgh. Granted, Pittsburgh's downtown is limited by geography, but aside from the few blocks that make up the cultural district and Market Square, there's absolutely nothing going on in downtown Pittsburgh on the weekends or after business hours.
Public transportation: Cleveland again. A light rail system that's actually useful for getting around the city proper? That alone wins this category for Cleveland. Plus, I've heard good things about the HealthLine, and I know Pittsburgh is looking to model it to better connect Downtown to some of the East End neighborhoods.
Neighborhoods in the city proper: Pittsburgh wins here. Like I said, Pittsburgh doesn't feel like a big city. It feels like a collection of neighborhoods. There seems a better variety of neighborhoods in the city to fit almost anyone's lifestyle. Maybe this is because I've never lived in Cleveland, so I don't know as much about the different neighborhoods. But where do the 20something recent college graduates live? I know Downtown Cleveland has a had a boom in population growth, but aside from that the only neighborhoods I ever hear people talking about moving to are Ohio City and Tremont.
Suburbs: Cleveland wins this one. All of Pittsburgh's suburbs are pretty generic, boring places with the only difference being which awful, slow moving road you have to take to get to the city. Cleveland has a lot of awesome, walkable suburbs with their own main streets and charm. I love going to shows at the Grog Shop, so I'm always walking around Coventry in Cleveland Heights.
Diversity: Cleveland. I actually heard Spanish being spoken outside the setting of a Mexican restaurant. I don't think I've ever heard that in Pittsburgh. Cleveland seems to have more diversity in general, while it seems the vast majority of Pittsburgh natives are of Eastern European decent.
Restaurants: Cleveland again. Michael Symon's work alone would win this for Cleveland. Cleveland seems to have a better selection of fine dining. Pittsburgh has some great spots as we'l, and it does seem like it's progressing rather quickly in the fine dining scene.
Nightlife: I don't really go out much, but I think Pittsburgh wins here. Cleveland doesn't really have anything that compares to the craziness that is Carson Street. West 6th is the best comparison to make. Pittsburgh also has some other great spots in Shadyside and Lawrenceville, but when I do go out, I stick to the Southside because I can walk everywhere.
Museums/zoos.: This one is pretty close. Both have great art museums, nice science centers and some unique offerings. Pittsburgh has the Andy Warhol Museum, while Cleveland has the Rock and Roll HOF. I like Pittsburgh's natural history museum more than Cleveland's. I like how the Pittsburgh Zoo also has an aquarium, and I really like the rainforest at the Cleveland Zoo. I recently went to the National Aviary in Pittsburgh for the first time, and I loved how close you could get to the penguins there (one of my favorite animals). I haven't had a chance to go to the new aquarium in Cleveland, so I can't fully judge this category.
Parks: This is also really close, but I think geography helps Cleveland win this category. Both cities have great park systems, but the fact that I can go to the beach at some Cleveland parks gives Cleveland the edge.
Sports facilities: Pittsburgh. PNC Park is the best baseball stadium I've ever been to. I love the Indians, I love going to the Jake, but it doesn't come close to matching PNC. Consol is nicer than the Q as well. Browns Stadium and Heinz Field are both great. In terms of teams, I'd rather have MLB, NFL and NBA than MLB, NFL and NHL, so Cleveland does win in that regard.
Roads: Cleveland wins easily. Navigating in Pittsburgh is a major PITA. There's a saying that Pittsburghers don't cross bridges. In my short time here, I've found myself becoming part of this stereotype. It's such a pain to get to some places that I usually just stick to my neighborhood for everything I need. I picked to live in one of the few completely flat neighborhoods that uses a grid system. A lot of the other neighborhoods are a combination of hills, twisting roads and goat paths. Cleveland also has better highway access with wider roads, making a lot easier to get in and out of the city.
People: Cleveland. In my experience, people in Cleveland just seem to be nicer and more pleasant in general. A lot of people in Pittsburgh really seem to live up to the white trash, Appalachian yinzer stereotypes. Also, I always hear a lot more horn honking in Pittsburgh than Cleveland.
I am born and raised in Pittsburgh. I also agree with 100 percent of what you said. It seems we see both cities in the exact same light. I went to school in the cleveland / akron area for college.
It was eye opening to see how much more wealth is in the suburbs of cleveland than in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh gets blown out of the water when comparing suburbs. Even on the outskirts. Medina, macedonia, twinsburg, richfield and hudson are a lot nicer than the pittsburgh exburbs of cranberry, Peters township, murrysville and hempfield township.
I travel there often because it is close and my friends are still there. There is a lot of good things happening in downtown cleveland and the western inner city neighborhoods. I really think these neighborhoods are highly underrated and changing for the better. Also, Cleveland Heights, University Heights and Shaker Heights are something that Pittsburgh just doesn't have. These suburban inner ring neighborhoods are nice and diverse. The closest suburb we have to that is Mt. Lebanon. Mt. Lebo is just as nice, but there is no diversity there. There is a black/minority middle class that exists in the cleveland metro that you just cannot find in pittsburgh.
I think it would be great for both of these cities including akron, youngstown, canton, new castle, sharon, beaver falls, wheeling, weirton and steubenville to work together. We all do have similar problems and are close together. Maybe using all of these cities and resources to lure startups and businesses to the region would be beneficial for all. The colleges, trade schools and population is there. We should see if we can build off of it.
The four rustbelt cities they commonly refer to is pittsburgh, cleveland, detroit and buffalo. Of those cities pittsburgh has always gotten the best press. Even when it was the worst. I truly dont understand why either. Every national article shows a picture of downtown taken from grandview ave. You never see a picture taken from another angle. Honestly there is a lot of blight here. The hills hide it better.
Now i have only been to buffalo once so i am not up on what is going on there. I really hope cleveland gets the positive press it deserves. Before the recession the job market was always better in cleveland than pittsburgh. I did notice it is rebounding from the recession. It always seemed to have higher wage jobs than the burgh. Even downtown detroit is making a rebound. Pittsburgh may have taller bldgs, but cleveland and detroit downtowns are more vibrant.
Now is cleveland under govt oversight or bankruptcy receivership? Pittsburgh has been under pa act 47 for 10 years now. Act 47 is a nice term for municipal bankruptcy receivership. It is still under oversight. Of course we all know detroit filed this year.
I don't know if Pittsburgh has traditionally received "better" press than the other cities. Recently perhaps, but over the decades? The view from Mt Washington is often captured because it's quite a view. All cities have blight. Atlanta has been booming for decades, but has plenty of blight so that's really irrelevant.
I'm not sure downtown Detroit or Cleveland is more vibrant than Pittsburgh. maybe. Downtown Pittsburgh is geographically restrained so other areas do capture some activity that might be downtown, but none of these cities are Manhattan or even have Philly's Center City population #s to be truly lively overall, but Cleveland and Pittsburgh have comparably amenities - certainly both offer high quality cultural offerings.
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"Big city" feel: Cleveland wins this one pretty easily. Downtown Cleveland is big, walkable and vibrant. There were people out and about all weekend, something you don't really see in downtown Pittsburgh. Granted, Pittsburgh's downtown is limited by geography, but aside from the few blocks that make up the cultural district and Market Square, there's absolutely nothing going on in downtown Pittsburgh on the weekends or after business hours.
Downtown Cleveland is a bigger area with broad streets etc and to me certainly is big city, but more like Detroit and Chicago in that open, expansive way. However, Pittsburgh is dense and a more crowded northeastern layout - while certainly not a 24/7 downtown - far from it, but it's daytime population and activities make it certainly busy - very busy at times. Yes large portions certainly are dead at night. I don't see how Cleveland would be more "walkable" to Pittsburgh. Again, I never considered one way or the other, but downtown Pgh's size and density makes it very walkable.
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Public transportation: Cleveland again. A light rail system that's actually useful for getting around the city proper? That alone wins this category for Cleveland.
Completely agree.
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Neighborhoods in the city proper: Pittsburgh wins here. Like I said, Pittsburgh doesn't feel like a big city. It feels like a collection of neighborhoods. There seems a better variety of neighborhoods in the city to fit almost anyone's lifestyle. Maybe this is because I've never lived in Cleveland, so I don't know as much about the different neighborhoods. But where do the 20something recent college graduates live? I know Downtown Cleveland has a had a boom in population growth, but aside from that the only neighborhoods I ever hear people talking about moving to are Ohio City and Tremont.
There are pro and cons to the hills - they coupled with the waves of immigration created a lot of varied neighborhoods. I would think Cleveland would be comparable, but without the hills that more explicitly create artificial borders. I would add that big cities have distinct neighborhoods that create internal almost small town feel about them. That's part of a city too.
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Suburbs: Cleveland wins this one. All of Pittsburgh's suburbs are pretty generic, boring places with the only difference being which awful, slow moving road you have to take to get to the city. Cleveland has a lot of awesome, walkable suburbs with their own main streets and charm. I love going to shows at the Grog Shop, so I'm always walking around Coventry in Cleveland Heights.
A lot of Pittsburgh developed pre war or in the boom years after which created a lot of dense older burbs and some nice, but a lot of working class ones (again some nice, some meh) that seems to differ with most cities and their growth patterns including the awkward roads one has to travel in a lot of places..
Cleveland also saw its post war burbs grow longer than Pittsburgh (i'm talking specifically Cuyahoga and Allegheny Counties here). For these reasons, I agree Cleveland has more, better options.
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Diversity: Cleveland. I actually heard Spanish being spoken outside the setting of a Mexican restaurant. I don't think I've ever heard that in Pittsburgh. Cleveland seems to have more diversity in general, while it seems the vast majority of Pittsburgh natives are of Eastern European decent.
True. I think that's part of the legacy of Pittsburgh industry and industrial decline, though with industry long gone and economy moving, demographics are changing.
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Restaurants: Cleveland again. Michael Symon's work alone would win this for Cleveland. Cleveland seems to have a better selection of fine dining. Pittsburgh has some great spots as we'l, and it does seem like it's progressing rather quickly in the fine dining scene.
Nightlife: I don't really go out much, but I think Pittsburgh wins here. Cleveland doesn't really have anything that compares to the craziness that is Carson Street. West 6th is the best comparison to make. Pittsburgh also has some other great spots in Shadyside and Lawrenceville, but when I do go out, I stick to the Southside because I can walk everywhere.
Again, I think that both are very comparable and personal preference comes in that point.
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Roads: Cleveland wins easily. Navigating in Pittsburgh is a major PITA.
The other stuff I largely and definitely agree here. Pittsburgh has awful, awful highways in terms of outdated infrastructure and secondary roads.
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People: Cleveland. In my experience, people in Cleveland just seem to be nicer and more pleasant in general. A lot of people in Pittsburgh really seem to live up to the white trash, Appalachian yinzer stereotypes. Also, I always hear a lot more horn honking in Pittsburgh than Cleveland.
I'm not sure what to say to that other than, it's the same everywhere. Maybe not the honking, but it's the same thing in Philly and other areas.
It seems clear that clevelanders don't like Pittsburgh.
It would be better pay attention to Columbus. It is IMO the main rival for Cleveland, and growing at the expense of Ohio taxpayers.
The four rustbelt cities they commonly refer to is pittsburgh, cleveland, detroit and buffalo. Of those cities pittsburgh has always gotten the best press. Even when it was the worst. I truly dont understand why either. Every national article shows a picture of downtown taken from grandview ave. You never see a picture taken from another angle. Honestly there is a lot of blight here. The hills hide it better.
Now i have only been to buffalo once so i am not up on what is going on there. I really hope cleveland gets the positive press it deserves. Before the recession the job market was always better in cleveland than pittsburgh. I did notice it is rebounding from the recession. It always seemed to have higher wage jobs than the burgh. Even downtown detroit is making a rebound. Pittsburgh may have taller bldgs, but cleveland and detroit downtowns are more vibrant.
Now is cleveland under govt oversight or bankruptcy receivership? Pittsburgh has been under pa act 47 for 10 years now. Act 47 is a nice term for municipal bankruptcy receivership. It is still under oversight. Of course we all know detroit filed this year.
I agree that, especially in the past 10 years, Pittsburgh has been getting better press, however I feel that the national media's view (or stereotype) of Cleveland seems to be changing. There has been a lot of press lately about our food, and our revitalized downtown.
I have to point out that Cleveland has the tallest building between NY and Chicago in the Key Tower, so Pittsburgh does not have taller buildings.
Also, to answer your question about bankruptcy receivership, the answer is no. Cleveland has been blessed with a financially responsible mayor who has balanced the books without needing to go on welfare from the state, and has actually improved city services.
Halle Berry, Arsenio Hall, Nine-Inch Nails, and Paul Newman who grew up in Shaker Heights. Chrissy Hynde of the Pretenders came from Akron but hung around Cleveland so much that the Rock Hall considers her native to Cleveland anyways.
Nine Inch Nails first formed in Cleveland, though Trent Reznor and Chris Vrenna were both born and raised in northwestern Pennsylvania.
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Originally Posted by TheMahValley
... look how many Pittsburgh residents came in here marketing Pittsburgh like it is some epitome of what Cleveland should be.
You put 'Pittsburgh' in the title of your post; what the hell else did you expect?
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Originally Posted by TheMahValley
More people in the Youngstown/Warren area go to Cleveland for the better shopping and concerts.
That's primarily a function of distance and establishment. Most of the good shopping in Cleveland is in the eastern suburbs, versus the northern suburbs for Pittsburgh, and Cleveland's eastern suburbs are closer to Youngstown than Pittsburgh's northern suburbs are. They're also a more established enclave of wealth, having been settled long before Pittsburgh's northern suburbs, which have emerged as a cluster of wealth in the last 20 years. You can zoom in on this map to see what I'm talking about.
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Originally Posted by TheMahValley
Then we have to hear about how many Ohio plates we see at Ikea or Robinson... please, you know how many PA plates I see on 224 or 422 in Boardman and Niles. I was at the Shops at Boardman Park this past Sunday and I think PA cars outnumbered Ohio cars.
That's because a) it's five miles from the Pennsylvania state line, and b) it's the closest large, modern shopping complex to New Castle and Lawrence County. And if you really want to go there, I could talk about the Grove City Premium Outlets being constantly overrun with Ohio, New York and Ontario plates. Something about tax-free clothing...
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Originally Posted by TheMahValley
I have friends from university from Erie, and many of them went to Cleveland over Pittsburgh for their "big city" wants or needs.
No ****; Erie's closer to Cleveland than it is to Pittsburgh. Downtown Erie to downtown Cleveland is 99 miles; downtown Erie to downtown Pittsburgh is 122 miles.
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Originally Posted by TheMahValley
Pittsburgh is very similar to its Appalachian roots, and Applachia that it is surrounded by. The area is very conservative outside a few city neighborhoods. Deny it if you like, but take trips in all cardinal directions and you will see what I am talking about. Hell, they even take a day off school for the start of deer hunting season.
It's actually an Appalachian/Mid-Atlantic blend. This is why all the quality-of-life indicators in western and central Pennsylvania and the southern tier of upstate New York are better than they are in the central and southern Appalachians. As for conservatism, it's long since left the city of Pittsburgh, and is increasingly leaving Allegheny County. Bill Peduto would never have been elected the mayor of Pittsburgh if a forward-thinking attitude was limited to just a few neighborhoods. As for the outlying counties, let them be backwards for all I care; they're not the ones steering the ship anyway. Allegheny County is where all the action is, and where all the positive socioeconomic trends in the region are originating from.
By the way, I grew up in the suburbs of Pittsburgh, and we never got the day off for the first day of deer-hunting season. You'd have to leave the metropolitan area to even find any school districts that do.
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Originally Posted by TheMahValley
Because of Pittsburgh's topography, many neighborhoods in the city suffer from poverty, and have not been able to enjoy the gentrification of other parts of the city.
Well that's similar to the way most of Cleveland east of the Cuyahoga River has missed out on the reinvestment taking place in the neighborhoods west of the river.
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Originally Posted by TheMahValley
Mountains, and in Pittsburgh's case, hills, are major barriers in anything from development to infrastructure work. This may explain why it takes PennDot 10 years to do a 1 year project.
It's exactly why. The terrain escalates the cost of maintaining and upgrading critical infrastructure.
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Originally Posted by zman63
There is a black/minority middle class that exists in the cleveland metro that you just cannot find in pittsburgh.
That's not entirely true. Both metropolitan areas have similar proportions of middle-class blacks relative to their entire black populations. The reason it's noticed more in Cleveland is simply because there are more than twice as many black people in the Cleveland metropolitan area as there are in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area. The black middle class in Pittsburgh can be found in many of the eastern suburbs, including Edgewood, Swissvale, Forest Hills, Churchill, Penn Hills and Wilkins Township, and increasingly in Monroeville. You can also find them in city neighborhoods like Highland Park, Stanton Heights and Point Breeze in the East End, and Manchester and Brighton Heights on the North Side.
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Originally Posted by zman63
The four rustbelt cities they commonly refer to is pittsburgh, cleveland, detroit and buffalo. Of those cities pittsburgh has always gotten the best press. Even when it was the worst.
That's not true at all. Cleveland was labeled "The Comeback City" during the 1990's. Pittsburgh was largely ignored until about five years ago.
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Originally Posted by zman63
Every national article shows a picture of downtown taken from grandview ave. You never see a picture taken from another angle.
That's because it's the most easily accessible view. All the other nice views are off the beaten path a bit. Personally, my favorite view is from the West End Overlook.
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Originally Posted by zman63
Honestly there is a lot of blight here. The hills hide it better.
There's a lot of blight in Cleveland too. And it's not really the hills hiding it in Pittsburgh, but the fact that the blight is decentralized. The former company towns up and down the river valleys (mostly the Monongahela River) are where most of the blight is. The good news is, it's easier just to let the outlying areas return to nature. On the other hand, most of the blight in Cleveland is in the city itself, due to the city being where most of the industry was.
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Originally Posted by zman63
I really hope cleveland gets the positive press it deserves. Before the recession the job market was always better in cleveland than pittsburgh.
If you know the difference between cyclical and structural economic corrections, then you know exactly why this was the case, considering Pittsburgh dealt with a structural correction in the 1980's.
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Originally Posted by zman63
Now is cleveland under govt oversight or bankruptcy receivership? Pittsburgh has been under pa act 47 for 10 years now. Act 47 is a nice term for municipal bankruptcy receivership. It is still under oversight. Of course we all know detroit filed this year.
Regardless, Pittsburgh has had a balanced budget for several years, which is more than can be said for most U.S. cities.
Does Pittsburgh always feel the need to compare itself to Cleveland and then bash the city? I few all things Pittsburghers say about Cleveland with a grain of salt because most know nothing about the city at all. What is this Pittsburgh obsession with Cleveland? I never see Pittsburgh mentioned in the Cleveland forum like Cleveland is over there.
Downtown Cleveland isn't vibrant? Ever been to downtown Pittsburgh? Yikes!
I wasn't going to get in on this, I was simply going to read and be quiet, but after some major LOL'ing I couldn't help myself.
In the OP, a link was made where Pittsburgh's job growth, which has numerous factual sources to back it up was discussed, meanwhile, this was ran across today:
I wasn't going to get in on this, I was simply going to read and be quiet, but after some major LOL'ing I couldn't help myself.
In the OP, a link was made where Pittsburgh's job growth, which has numerous factual sources to back it up was discussed, meanwhile, this was ran across today:
...ok? Your point? This has nothing to do with job loss or gain. If anything it ties into a previous posters comment regarding Pittsburgh's balanced budget.
But I forgot, you're famous for throwing out an article and thinking you've made a rebuttal. You're not fun to debate with.
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