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Old 02-07-2014, 11:38 AM
 
20 posts, read 28,597 times
Reputation: 19

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector View Post
I agree, but invalid stats simply need to be refuted. CLT is a location that just became a whole lot less strategic with the AA/USAir merger. Maybe they will win out over DC and Miami. Then again, maybe not. The bottom line is that they will consolidate.

Boston-Logan isn't technically a hub, but it is a focus city for a few major airlines. I'm pretty sure that Jet Blue is the largest actual passenger carrier there.
This seems to be a: "If my city can't have a hub, nobody's will!"

Pretty much every industry analyst thinks American will grow in Charlotte. Yes, they will consolidate and shift routes around, but one of the biggest advantages of the merger is American FINALLY has a hub in the Southeast United States and it is a near monopoly. Washington-Reagan can't grow (slot controlled airport with no international service, in fact they must give up some slots as part of merger to Southwest Airlines & JetBlue). Miami is too far away for connections within the USA. Miami is well known as a launching point to Latin America, but terribly inconvenient for Southeast passengers traveling to Europe and within the USA.

American is doing what everybody expects them to do. They are shifting the Charlotte-Rio flight to Miami, while growing Charlotte to Europe, adding new destinations of Lisbon, Brussels, Barcelona, and Manchester. Roughly 18% of the new American's flights will take off and land from Charlotte, the 2nd largest hub in the system. American can fly the Midwest and Northeast through Philadelphia, Chicago, & JFK to Europe, the Southeast and Southwest through Charlotte to Europe, and Latin American via Miami.

With the merger American announced Charlotte will offer international service to:
Antigua, Aruba, Barbadoes, Belize City, Cancun, Cozumel, Frankfurt, Freeport, Grandcayman, Liberia, London-Heathrow, Mexico City, Montego Bay, Nassau, Providenciales, Punta Cana, Sao Paulo, St. Lucia, St. Maarten, San Jose de Costa Rica, San Jose del Cabo.
Barcelona (New), Bermuda, Brussels (New), Dublin, Lisbon (New), Madrid, Manchester (New), Paris, Rome.

Cleveland is a victim of its geography being a very small hub and the merger with United. United's priorities were elsewhere and they wanted to built service elsewhere.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:04 PM
 
306 posts, read 818,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector View Post
So, by this logic, a Cleveland hub could include Erie, Pittsburgh, Toledo, Columbus, Mansfield, etc. and just assume that they would rather drive an extra hour or so regardless of the fact that each smaller metro has their own airport. Sorry, but that's not quite how it works. If it did, CLE could claim 10+ million people.
In theory, Pittsburgh and Columbus should be major feeder markets for Cleveland's hub. That's how a successful hub would work. The problem is CLE offers virtually the same mainline service as those airports. There's little reason for anyone regionally to connect in CLE when they offer many if not most of the same flights as their nearby counterparts. Most of CLE's unique destinations are very small markets which are not going to be bringing many people in. In the case of CLT, those nearby regional airports only fly to hubs. Pretty much no place else. That's not the case here as CLE is pretty hemmed in geographically. They have many more competitors - including CAK in its own backyard which similar sized markets don't necessarily have. They are forced to fly to the nearest hub. CLE doesn't have that same advantage.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:32 PM
 
4,361 posts, read 7,143,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jam1919 View Post
This seems to be a: "If my city can't have a hub, nobody's will!"
What in the world are you even talking about?

Quote:
Pretty much every industry analyst thinks American will grow in Charlotte.
With the merger American announced Charlotte will offer international service to:
Antigua, Aruba, Barbadoes, Belize City, Cancun, Cozumel, Frankfurt, Freeport, Grandcayman, Liberia, London-Heathrow, Mexico City, Montego Bay, Nassau, Providenciales, Punta Cana, Sao Paulo, St. Lucia, St. Maarten, San Jose de Costa Rica, San Jose del Cabo.
Barcelona (New), Bermuda, Brussels (New), Dublin, Lisbon (New), Madrid, Manchester (New), Paris, Rome.
We'll see in about 4-5 years.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:43 PM
 
4,361 posts, read 7,143,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty711 View Post
In theory, Pittsburgh and Columbus should be major feeder markets for Cleveland's hub. That's how a successful hub would work. The problem is CLE offers virtually the same mainline service as those airports. There's little reason for anyone regionally to connect in CLE when they offer many if not most of the same flights as their nearby counterparts. Most of CLE's unique destinations are very small markets which are not going to be bringing many people in. In the case of CLT, those nearby regional airports only fly to hubs. Pretty much no place else. That's not the case here as CLE is pretty hemmed in geographically. They have many more competitors - including CAK in its own backyard which similar sized markets don't necessarily have. They are forced to fly to the nearest hub. CLE doesn't have that same advantage.
We were talking about O/D flights, not hub-based traffic. Nobody is going to drive to CLE from PGH, TOL, CHM and be in the "origin" stats unless the deal on the ticket is incredible. They aren't going to drive from 100 miles out in NC, SC, GA, etc. to CLT either for the same reason. And, many times, the flights are more expensive out of or into a hub than they are in the smaller markets. Driving to the hub would offer no advantage.
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Old 02-07-2014, 01:18 PM
 
20 posts, read 28,597 times
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Hopefully we can find a way to keep the cost low for other airlines. Less airline landing fees to go around now.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index..._airlines.html

Moody's says costs to airlines at Cleveland Hopkins could jump.
"Moody's said Hopkins' estimated costs-per-enplanement were $15.37 in 2013, nearly twice the median for U.S. airports that the agency rates. Its budgeted cost-per-enplanement for 2014 was $13.92. Now that could rise to as high as $25, Moody's said, because Hopkins' costs will be spread across fewer flights and passengers, making it more expensive for all airlines at the airport."
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Old 02-07-2014, 02:43 PM
 
306 posts, read 818,062 times
Reputation: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector View Post
We were talking about O/D flights, not hub-based traffic. Nobody is going to drive to CLE from PGH, TOL, CHM and be in the "origin" stats unless the deal on the ticket is incredible. They aren't going to drive from 100 miles out in NC, SC, GA, etc. to CLT either for the same reason. And, many times, the flights are more expensive out of or into a hub than they are in the smaller markets. Driving to the hub would offer no advantage.
Of course, very few people drive from Columbus to CLE. There's little reason to do it and that was my point. CLE is not a regional airport. It's a great local draw but that's pretty much it. It is not comparable to major airports in other places due to many factors including geography. People drive in from Erie but not from any substantial sized metro area.

For the record, there are multiple private bus lines that run 60-120 mile routes direct to CLT from cities that also offer air service to CLT. If there's no demand to drive there, then why do they exist? Obviously the market supports it and their customer base is larger than just Metro Charlotte. You will find similar bus routes connecting DTW and at virtually every hub in the States because those airports are regional draws. Has CLE ever offered anything similar? I don't think it did and again that's largely because of where it's located.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Willowbend/Houston
13,384 posts, read 25,622,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland_Collector View Post
I agree, but invalid stats simply need to be refuted. CLT is a location that just became a whole lot less strategic with the AA/USAir merger. Maybe they will win out over DC and Miami. Then again, maybe not. The bottom line is that they will consolidate.
.
Yes and no. Cleveland and Charlotte are apples and oranges situations from two reasons:

1) Charlotte is a larger air travel market. It has significantly more domestic and international O&D. In todays world O&D plus geography drive the need for a hub. Charlotte to London, Munich, and Frankfurt are all high yielding and large markets. Cleveland does not have a transatlantic market that is as large or high yielding.

2) Cleveland is sandwiched between Chicago, Detroit, and Washington DC. All three are much larger markets and much more international. When choosing a city for a hub in the region, Im afraid Cleveland isnt going to make the cut with the fewer airlines around. Charlotte on the other hand is the 2nd most important city in the Southeast (after Atlanta) from an air travel local market size perspective. Because of that, there is a need for a hub there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jam1919 View Post
This seems to be a: "If my city can't have a hub, nobody's will!"

Pretty much every industry analyst thinks American will grow in Charlotte. Yes, they will consolidate and shift routes around, but one of the biggest advantages of the merger is American FINALLY has a hub in the Southeast United States and it is a near monopoly. Washington-Reagan can't grow (slot controlled airport with no international service, in fact they must give up some slots as part of merger to Southwest Airlines & JetBlue). Miami is too far away for connections within the USA. Miami is well known as a launching point to Latin America, but terribly inconvenient for Southeast passengers traveling to Europe and within the USA.

American is doing what everybody expects them to do. They are shifting the Charlotte-Rio flight to Miami, while growing Charlotte to Europe, adding new destinations of Lisbon, Brussels, Barcelona, and Manchester. Roughly 18% of the new American's flights will take off and land from Charlotte, the 2nd largest hub in the system. American can fly the Midwest and Northeast through Philadelphia, Chicago, & JFK to Europe, the Southeast and Southwest through Charlotte to Europe, and Latin American via Miami.

With the merger American announced Charlotte will offer international service to:
Antigua, Aruba, Barbadoes, Belize City, Cancun, Cozumel, Frankfurt, Freeport, Grandcayman, Liberia, London-Heathrow, Mexico City, Montego Bay, Nassau, Providenciales, Punta Cana, Sao Paulo, St. Lucia, St. Maarten, San Jose de Costa Rica, San Jose del Cabo.
Barcelona (New), Bermuda, Brussels (New), Dublin, Lisbon (New), Madrid, Manchester (New), Paris, Rome.

Cleveland is a victim of its geography being a very small hub and the merger with United. United's priorities were elsewhere and they wanted to built service elsewhere.
Well, there is going to be some consolidation in Charlotte. Its not going to be quite that rosy.

First, all of those new European destinations were announced before the merger with American was approved. Expect most of those to go away by summer 2015. I expect Charlotte will have service to London, Frankfurt, Paris, and Madrid and maybe Rome in the summer. I do expect American to add a few more destinations in the Midwest such as Oklahoma City and Wichita.

I do agree that Charlotte and DC/Miami do not compete for business. Thats why the hub is safe.

For those interested in reading more about the situation with Cleveland:

Boyd Group International Aviation Planning
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Old 02-09-2014, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Ak-Rowdy, OH
1,522 posts, read 2,989,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterlemonjello View Post
For those interested in reading more about the situation with Cleveland:

Boyd Group International Aviation Planning
Seems like a realistic assessment of the situation.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Western PA
3,733 posts, read 5,938,988 times
Reputation: 3189
Chiming in from Pittsburgh here. We went through this ten years ago when USAir flew the coop. Ironically, the local economy is thriving and much better now than when Pittsburgh was a hub. Back then, everyone complained that our airfares were some of the highest in the country. Now we have much lower airfares and still have service to almost all the major cities from new airlines. True, we can no longer get to Charleston, WV and Buffalo non-stop, but most of that traffic was connecting, anyway.

Not every city in the northeast and midwest can be a hub. Cleveland and Pittsburgh are too close to huge hubs in Chicago, Detroit, Washington/Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York's three airports, and Boston. The south only has two major cities: Atlanta and Charlotte, so naturally those would be hubs. Plenty of non-hub cities are thriving: Columbus, Austin, Raleigh, Oklahoma City, San Antonio come to mind. I'm sure there are many others.

The Boyd report is pretty spot-on, and sounds exactly like what they told Pittsburgh as the politicians and chamber of commerce were wringing their hands in 2004. It's not the end of the world.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:47 AM
 
624 posts, read 900,986 times
Reputation: 436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geeo View Post
Chiming in from Pittsburgh here. We went through this ten years ago when USAir flew the coop. Ironically, the local economy is thriving and much better now than when Pittsburgh was a hub. Back then, everyone complained that our airfares were some of the highest in the country. Now we have much lower airfares and still have service to almost all the major cities from new airlines. True, we can no longer get to Charleston, WV and Buffalo non-stop, but most of that traffic was connecting, anyway.

Not every city in the northeast and midwest can be a hub. Cleveland and Pittsburgh are too close to huge hubs in Chicago, Detroit, Washington/Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York's three airports, and Boston. The south only has two major cities: Atlanta and Charlotte, so naturally those would be hubs. Plenty of non-hub cities are thriving: Columbus, Austin, Raleigh, Oklahoma City, San Antonio come to mind. I'm sure there are many others.

The Boyd report is pretty spot-on, and sounds exactly like what they told Pittsburgh as the politicians and chamber of commerce were wringing their hands in 2004. It's not the end of the world.
Charlotte's metro is about 2.3 million, Miami over 5 million, Tampa close to 3 million, Orlando over 2 million and if we count the TX cities Houston 6, DFW 6, and San Antonio over 2, are all larger than Cleveland's metro. But I agree it's certainly not the end of the world Cleveland.
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