Cleveland: the "mini-Chicago" (Parma, Lorain: amusement park, transfer, neighborhoods)

[kpl1228]

Always thought this. Even before I moved to Cleveland almost 20 years ago and after I moved out of Ohio last year.

1) interesting (ahem) weather, esp. winter
2) sports "tradition"---especially in bad sports teams that won decades ago, and their dedicated fans. Bernie Kosar = Jim McMahon (not great, just good and beloved and paying the price from concussions), Jim Brown = Gale Sayers, Omar Vizquel = Ernie Banks, P Brown = G Halas, Ernie Davis= Brian Piccolo, Indians = Cubs (Rocky Colavito trade = Cubs curse), Terry Pluto = Mike Royko, Cleveland Arena = Chicago International Amphitheatre, Thistledown = Hawthorne, Ten Cent Beer Night = Disco Demolition night, outdoor fields, real grass, hot dogs, lots of beer
3) take a map of Chicago, turn it sideways: Cleveland. Take a map of Cleveland, turn it clockwise: Chicago. ...the airport's even in the same corner when you do this, complete with train line downtown from airport. River through the middle of town. City completely hemmed in by suburbs. Light rail/bus mix: solid public transportation, though the source of endless griping.
4) E.9th = Michigan Avenue, Euclid Ave = State Street, Broadway = Milwaukee Ave, CSU = UIC, Little Italy = Greektown, Edgewater = Diversey, Euclid Beach Amusement Park = Riverside Park, w 65th and Detroit = Clark and Belmont, w117th and Clifton = New Town, Kamms = Bridgeport (lots of Irish city cops and firemen), Central = Bronzeville, Tremont = Logan Square, Clark-Fulton = Humboldt Park, University Circle = Hyde Park, Lakewood = Evanston, Parma = Cicero, Bay Village = Winnetka, Lorain = Joliet, Terminal Tower = Wrigley Building, stockyards = stockyards, 80/90 Turnpike = 80/90 Turnpike
5) Polish Boys = Chicago Dogs. Stadium Mustard = Chicago Pizza, Great Lakes Brewery = Goose Island Brewery, lake perch = coho salmon, Michael Symon = Charlie Trotter
6) Millionaire's Row Magnates, tradition of philanthropy. Acclaimed museums and orchestra in competition for top 5 in nation status. Rockefeller = Wrigley
7) Dick Feagler = Irp Kupcinet, Drew Carey=Bob Newhart, Paul Newman = Charlton Heston, Halle Berry = Raquel Welch (born in Chicago), Ghoulardi/Big Chuck and Lil John = Svengoolie, Dorothy Fuldheim = Merri Dee, Christmas Story = John Hughes movies
8) White flight, housing protests, busing, integrated school protests, West side vs. East side = North side vs. South side, Call and Post = Chicago Defender, awful city schools = awful city schools, Olivet Baptist Church = Liberty Baptist Church, Cleveland Buckeyes = Chicago American Giants
9) Eric Carmen = Dennis DeYoung, Rock Hall = Chess Records museum, Agora = Aragon Ballroom (the one in Chicago, that is), old WMMS = old WLS, Szell = Solti, Womack = Staples, Raspberries = Buckinghams. Incredible local music scenes, esp. bars on weekends. Not to mention polkas.
10) Distinctive blue collar regional white-guy accents. Da Bears/Daley/Blues Brothers = Trivosonno/Big Chuck Schodowski/Murray Saul

[tcave360]

Originally Posted by kpl1228

Always thought this. Even before I moved there almost 20 years ago and after I moved out of state last year.

1) interesting (ahem) weather, esp. winter
2) sports "tradition"---especially in bad sports teams that won decades ago, and their dedicated fans. Bernie Kosar = Jim McMahon (not great, just good and beloved and paying the price from concussions), Jim Brown = Gale Sayers, Omar Vizquel = Ernie Banks, P Brown = G Halas, Ernie Davis= Brian Piccolo, Indians = Cubs (Rocky Colavito trade = Cubs curse), Terry Pluto = Mike Royko, Cleveland Arena = Chicago International Amphitheatre, Ten Cent Beer Night = Disco Demolition night, outdoor fields, real grass, hot dogs, lots of beer
3) take a map of Chicago, turn it sideways: Cleveland. Take a map of Cleveland, turn it clockwise: Chicago. ...the airport's even in the same corner when you do this, complete with train line downtown from airport. River through the middle of town. City completely hemmed in by suburbs. Light rail/bus mix: solid public transportation, though the source of endless griping.
4) E.9th = Michigan Avenue, Euclid Ave = State Street, Broadway = Milwaukee Ave, CSU = UIC, Little Italy = Greektown, Edgewater = Diversey, Euclid Beach Amusement Park = Riverside Park, w 65th and Detroit = Clark and Belmont, w117th and Clifton = New Town, Kamms = Bridgeport (lots of Irish city cops and firemen), Tremont = Logan Square, Clark-Fulton = Humboldt Park, University Circle = Hyde Park, Lakewood = Evanston, Parma = Cicero, Bay Village = Winnetka, Lorain = Joliet, Terminal Tower = Wrigley Building, stockyards = stockyards, 80/90 Turnpike = 80/90 Turnpike
5) Polish Boys = Chicago Dogs. Stadium Mustard = Chicago Pizza, Great Lakes Brewery = Goose Island Brewery, lake perch = coho salmon, Michael Symon = Charlie Trotter
6) Millionaire's Row Magnates, tradition of philanthropy. Acclaimed museums and orchestra in competition for top 5 in nation status. Rockefeller = Wrigley
7) Dick Feagler = Irp Kupcinet, Drew Carey=Bob Newhart, Paul Newman = Charlton Heston, Halle Berry = Raquel Welch (born in Chicago), Ghoulardi/Big Chuck and Lil John = Svengoolie, Dorothy Fuldheim = Merri Dee, Christmas Story = John Hughes movies
8) White flight, housing protests, busing, integrated school protests, West side vs. East side = North side vs. South side, Call and Post = Chicago Defender, awful city schools = awful city schools, Olivet Baptist Church = Liberty Baptist Church, Cleveland Buckeyes = Chicago American Giants
9) Eric Carmen = Dennis DeYoung, Rock Hall = Chess Records museum, Agora = Aragon Ballroom (the one in Chicago, that is), old WMMS = old WLS, Szell = Solti, Womack = Staples, Raspberries = Buckinghams. Incredible local music scenes, esp. bars on weekends. Not to mention polkas.
10) Distinctive blue collar regional white-guy accents. Da Bears/Daley/Blues Brothers = Trivosonno/Big Chuck Schodowski/Murray Saul

For 10, are the blue collar regional black accents in both cities similar to each other?

[kpl1228]

Not sure. I do think that there is a Cleveland black accent, for example. Many African Americans in NE Ohio have roots in Alabama, while much of the Chicago black community came up the Illinois Central line from Mississippi, so I do think the "regionalness" (is that even a word?) of those communities transferred north.

[averysgore]

The major place where this fails is: Shaker Heights/Cleveland Heights/Gates Mills et al - the equivalent Chicago suburbs would be on the north side, not the south side. This is significant, since it prevents Cleveland's west side from dominating the city (attractions-wise) to the extent that Chicago's north side does. But if it did, the west side would probably be safer.

It's interesting that the similarity has actually increased recently, especially comparisons like "w 65 and Detroit = Clark and Belmont."

[kpl1228]

Originally Posted by averysgore

The major place where this fails is: Shaker Heights/Cleveland Heights/Gates Mills et al - the equivalent Chicago suburbs would be on the north side, not the south side. This is significant, since it prevents Cleveland's west side from dominating the city (attractions-wise) to the extent that Chicago's north side does. But if it did, the west side would probably be safer.

It's interesting that the similarity has actually increased recently, especially comparisons like "w 65 and Detroit = Clark and Belmont."

I agree. North has some poorer neighborhoods, but nothing like the wealthy suburbs/poor neighborhood dichotomy of Cleveland's East Side.

Tried a Cleveland Heights "Jewish" connection with Skokie but reconsidered it, due to CH's diverse population and geographic location.

The obvious big difference to me is (outside of the obvious population size difference) is downtown shopping and downtown as a viable strong commercial center. Tower City Center is no Magnificent Mile of Michigan Avenue, and there is a Federal Reserve Bank in Cleveland, but no Stock Exchange, Merchandise Mart (maybe Medical Mart?), or Chicago Board of Trade. Although both towns lost most of their flagship department stores (Cleveland lost them all), Chicago has hung on quite nicely as a downtown shopping mecca regardless, although many old-timers still pine for the glory days of State Street (hence my Euclid Avenue parallel).

A former college prof disagreed with me years ago, saying Cleveland's not a mini Chicago, and is more like Buffalo. This is what spurred this. With all due respect to Buffalo, the cultural legacy of Cleveland and Chicago, and its lasting images to the rest of the country (does anyone outside of NY state REALLY know what Buffalo "is" or looks like?), is much more similar.

[ZnGuy]

I find Cleveland very similar to Milwaukee, although right now Milwaukee may have done better job on lake access.

[Cleverfield]

To me while they look similar, the two cities feel quite different. Chicago is distinctly more midwestern, in that most of the people that moved there as the city grew were rural people from small towns in Illinois, Iowa, and Indiana. Of course it had a lot of immigrants too, but I feel it's not an immigrant city in the same way that Cleveland is. Cleveland has slightly more East Coast connection with magnates like Rockefeller who did extensive business on both the East Coast and Cleveland. In this way Cleveland is more similar to Buffalo. I think the West Side of Cleveland has more in common with Chicago than the East Side. Lakewood, for example, reminds me a lot of Evanston.

[ohioaninsc]

To me they don't compare...in what ways would E 9th Street compare to Michigan Ave (The Magnificent Mile)...there aren't dozens of true High Rises lining it, along w/ Retail for the entire stretch w/ thousands upon thousands of pedestrians shopping and eating...
Cleveland also comes far short of using the lakeshore like Chicago or Milwaukee do.

Chicago Sports teams are quite succesfull...Bulls (6 NBA titles) vs Cavs (0 NBA Titles)...Blackhawks (2 Stanley Cups) vs don't even have NHL team...Bears (1 Super Title) vs Browns (Never been to Super Bowl)...White Sox (won the 2005 World Series) vs Indians (haven't won it since 1948)...Chicago has won more championships than any city but Boston in the last 25 yrs.

Skylines don't compare.

They both do have a good flagship Craft Brewer...Chicago has Goose Island...Cleveland has Great Lakes.

[kpl1228]

Originally Posted by ohioaninsc

Skylines don't compare.

Very true! Another good point.

[Minervah]

Well, I lived in Chicago for 32 years but was gone for 36. I know Chicago has changed a lot in that time and I have only been in Cleveland for a very short time but I just don't see the similarities other than people are pretty friendly in both cities. Then again I haven't lived in Chicago for a long time and lived in Cleveland for too short a time to really judge.