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Given the current depressed state of Euclid, there are readily available locations for a very large park 'n ride station with excellent access to both north/south and east/west freeways.
A Euclid Red Line station might rapidly become a key Red Line station, and would offer many opportunities for linked bus service, including with Lake County's Laketran system. It would be an incredible booster shot for Euclid.
Many times I've been told that the Red Line uses actual railroad tracks unlike the Blue and Green Lines and that's why it's a heavy rapid line. So I was surprised to learn that all three lines at times use the same tracks.
It's been an informative discussion, so thanks Minervah for the original question!
Cleveland has one of the weirdest systems in the country with the 2 types of cars, heavy rail and light rail, sharing track and (3) stations, the latter having separate passenger platform heights. As it stands, the LRV trains from the Blue, Green and Waterfront Lines can navigate the entire system (including Red Line sections), whereas the HRV's can only operate on the Red Line track which, of course, is shared with the LRVs between E. 55 and Tower City. Why? Because the LRV articulated trains technically are shorter because they bend in the middle (as though they were 2 coupled cars rather than a single longer one), which allows them to navigate several tight turns on the Blue/Green light rail sections (like at the Van Aken junction with Shaker, at Woodhill and at a number of sections on the Waterfront Line), which the longer, un-bending Red Line HRVs cannot.
Cleveland has one of the weirdest systems in the country with the 2 types of cars, heavy rail and light rail, sharing track and (3) stations, the latter having separate passenger platform heights. As it stands, the LRV trains from the Blue, Green and Waterfront Lines can navigate the entire system (including Red Line sections), whereas the HRV's can only operate on the Red Line track which, of course, is shared with the LRVs between E. 55 and Tower City. Why? Because the LRV articulated trains technically are shorter because they bend in the middle (as though they were 2 coupled cars rather than a single longer one), which allows them to navigate several tight turns on the Blue/Green light rail sections (like at the Van Aken junction with Shaker, at Woodhill and at a number of sections on the Waterfront Line), which the longer, un-bending Red Line HRVs cannot.
Cleveland has one of the weirdest systems in the country with the 2 types of cars, heavy rail and light rail, sharing track and (3) stations, the latter having separate passenger platform heights. As it stands, the LRV trains from the Blue, Green and Waterfront Lines can navigate the entire system (including Red Line sections), whereas the HRV's can only operate on the Red Line track which, of course, is shared with the LRVs between E. 55 and Tower City. Why? Because the LRV articulated trains technically are shorter because they bend in the middle (as though they were 2 coupled cars rather than a single longer one), which allows them to navigate several tight turns on the Blue/Green light rail sections (like at the Van Aken junction with Shaker, at Woodhill and at a number of sections on the Waterfront Line), which the longer, un-bending Red Line HRVs cannot.
No wonder I was confused. They don't look like any railroad system I have ever seen in other cities. That's what made me curious in the first place.
Given the current depressed state of Euclid, there are readily available locations for a very large park 'n ride station with excellent access to both north/south and east/west freeways.
A Euclid Red Line station might rapidly become a key Red Line station, and would offer many opportunities for linked bus service, including with Lake County's Laketran system. It would be an incredible booster shot for Euclid.
Cleveland's transit ridership decline is akin to the rate of its population loss. Attract people to the city and the transit ridership will increase. People in the suburbs don't use or like public transportation. Transit riders in Cleveland are typified by the local story featuring two African-American women, one a janitor, the other a crossing guard, griping that they are too pressed to pay the .25 cent fare increase.
I'm skeptical of extending the Red Line to Euclid with the idea that people will drive in from, say, Mentor, park their car, wait for a train and ride through the east side, down to Tower City and then make their way to the office. It's not convenient and it's not logical. And the suggestion that these riders can then transfer to the Waterfront Line for work at E 9th/Lakeside or the East Bank is ridiculous. Euclid is depressed, running the Rapid there is misplaced; the stable suburbs, spreading into the adjacent counties don't want the Rapid.
The inner ring suburbs are declining as Cleveland's sprawl continues.
If you're driving in from Lake County, whether in a car or on LakeTran, you want a single ride into town.
Cleveland's transit ridership decline is akin to the rate of its population loss. Attract people to the city and the transit ridership will increase. People in the suburbs don't use or like public transportation. Transit riders in Cleveland are typified by the local story featuring two African-American women, one a janitor, the other a crossing guard, griping that they are too pressed to pay the .25 cent fare increase.
I'm skeptical of extending the Red Line to Euclid with the idea that people will drive in from, say, Mentor, park their car, wait for a train and ride through the east side, down to Tower City and then make their way to the office. It's not convenient and it's not logical. And the suggestion that these riders can then transfer to the Waterfront Line for work at E 9th/Lakeside or the East Bank is ridiculous. Euclid is depressed, running the Rapid there is misplaced; the stable suburbs, spreading into the adjacent counties don't want the Rapid.
The inner ring suburbs are declining as Cleveland's sprawl continues.
If you're driving in from Lake County, whether in a car or on LakeTran, you want a single ride into town.
Yet I know very affluent west siders who drive to park 'n ride RTA Red Line stations and then take the Red Line to Tower City. It's relatively hassle-free and will become ever more attractive if downtown is developed in such a manner as to eliminate the current relatively bargain-priced parking downtown.
Yes, much depends upon where you work downtown and the current day's weather.
If just visiting downtown or University Circle for fun, the Red Line would be very attractive from Euclid. E.g., buy a day pass, go to an Indians game, then stop at Little Italy for dinner (before or after the game) not having to worry about parking, all for the cost of a couple $5 day passes. There would be a big difference between getting to and parking at a Euclid station as opposed to Windermere.
Red Line rail rapids are a vast improvement over bus lines. I haven't ridden a 39 bus in years, but they used to be slow and so crowded that persons often were standing from western Euclid to downtown.
BTW, are you really surprised that low-wage workers in the U.S. are living hand-to-mouth?
Cleveland's transit ridership decline is akin to the rate of its population loss. Attract people to the city and the transit ridership will increase.
Actually, the decline in ridership is more linked to the loss of downtown jobs and retail from the 70s to the early 2000s and the solely 9-to-5 suburb/outer neighborhood-to-downtown commuting pattern of that era. Since then, the growth in downtown along with the growth in jobs and entertainment at certain stations beyond TC , like Ohio City, University Circle and the new Little Italy station, coupled with the rise in downtown residents who are riding the rails out from downtown to these neighborhoods, is changing traditional Cleveland riding patterns. While rush hour ridership is not nearly as robust as it was in the late 70s/early 80s, off peak rail riding has picked up considerably in recent years. The Red Line used to run 1-car off peak trains with the driver taking fares and the trains were practically empty. Now RTA runs 2-car trains all day except for special events where a 3rd car is added, and trains are usually about half to a third full off peak, with some being much more than that (esp around weekday lunch periods, where riding to places like Ohio City and U. Circle and even Shaker Square, in addition to Tower City).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms
People in the suburbs don't use or like public transportation.
That’s a generalization that’s simply not true. For years, commuters in even wealthy places like Gates Mills, Moreland Hills and Pepper Pike have driven in to the Green Road station in Shaker. Similarly, on the West Side, suburbanites in the far corners of Cuyahoga County and into Lorain and Medina counties drive in on interstates like 480, 71 and 90 to stations like Brookpark, Puritas and Triskett for the commute downtown or to University Circle and the University + Hospital complex, where jobs are growing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms
Transit riders in Cleveland are typified by the local story featuring two African-American women, one a janitor, the other a crossing guard, griping that they are too pressed to pay the .25 cent fare increase.
What does race have to do with anything? I personally know of working and middle class white riders who feel the same way. Conversely, I know of African American professionals in the burbs who can handle most fare increases although they might not like it. Race is irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms
I'm skeptical of extending the Red Line to Euclid with the idea that people will drive in from, say, Mentor, park their car, wait for a train and ride through the east side, down to Tower City and then make their way to the office. It's not convenient and it's not logical. And the suggestion that these riders can then transfer to the Waterfront Line for work at E 9th/Lakeside or the East Bank is ridiculous. Euclid is depressed, running the Rapid there is misplaced; the stable suburbs, spreading into the adjacent counties don't want the Rapid.
Again, broad generalizations that are not grounded in fact. The comfort and conveniences of not having to drive while riding a fast train would be a lure for a lot of people, just as I noted attracts suburbanites to the current system. Your post also totally ignores the heavy growth and rush hour traffic problems in and around University Circle where there are now 2 brand new stations -- 1 right at the doorstep to Little Italy and a short walk to the mushrooming Uptown complex. A Red Line train ride is more direct and would be faster from Euclid than driving, where there is no direct freeway – and hopefully, there never will be, if the pro-sprawl, anti-urban conservatives can be held at bay.
Actually, the decline in ridership is more linked to the loss of downtown jobs and retail from the 70s to the early 2000s and the solely 9-to-5 suburb/outer neighborhood-to-downtown commuting pattern of that era. Since then, the growth in downtown along with the growth in jobs and entertainment at certain stations beyond TC , like Ohio City, University Circle and the new Little Italy station, coupled with the rise in downtown residents who are riding the rails out from downtown to these neighborhoods, is changing traditional Cleveland riding patterns. While rush hour ridership is not nearly as robust as it was in the late 70s/early 80s, off peak rail riding has picked up considerably in recent years. The Red Line used to run 1-car off peak trains with the driver taking fares and the trains were practically empty. Now RTA runs 2-car trains all day except for special events where a 3rd car is added, and trains are usually about half to a third full off peak, with some being much more than that (esp around weekday lunch periods, where riding to places like Ohio City and U. Circle and even Shaker Square, in addition to Tower City).
That’s a generalization that’s simply not true. For years, commuters in even wealthy places like Gates Mills, Moreland Hills and Pepper Pike have driven in to the Green Road station in Shaker. Similarly, on the West Side, suburbanites in the far corners of Cuyahoga County and into Lorain and Medina counties drive in on interstates like 480, 71 and 90 to stations like Brookpark, Puritas and Triskett for the commute downtown or to University Circle and the University + Hospital complex, where jobs are growing.
What does race have to do with anything? I personally know of working and middle class white riders who feel the same way. Conversely, I know of African American professionals in the burbs who can handle most fare increases although they might not like it. Race is irrelevant.
Again, broad generalizations that are not grounded in fact. The comfort and conveniences of not having to drive while riding a fast train would be a lure for a lot of people, just as I noted attracts suburbanites to the current system. Your post also totally ignores the heavy growth and rush hour traffic problems in and around University Circle where there are now 2 brand new stations -- 1 right at the doorstep to Little Italy and a short walk to the mushrooming Uptown complex. A Red Line train ride is more direct and would be faster from Euclid than driving, where there is no direct freeway – and hopefully, there never will be, if the pro-sprawl, anti-urban conservatives can be held at bay.
I just stated the similarity between the city's population loss and transit use. The jobs and retail business followed the people escaping Cleveland into the suburbs; hence the transit drop. So, not sure what your point is since the population drop = transit drop. We all know the reason: crime, corruption, etc forced people out of the city and the jobs and retail either followed or vanished completely.
Race is irrelevant; I just wish the media would stop manipulating it.
The west side station parking lots sure seem a lot more empty than they used to be. You make it sound as if Cleveland is undergoing this huge uptick in transit use. Take rail into the suburbs then if the demand is so great that people are flocking into parking lots and riding the rapid into downtown.
A large increase in city population will increase transit use. Transit use not being nearly as robust as the late '70s-early '80s, is a total spin on over a 50% drop in ridership since that time.
Yet I know very affluent west siders who drive to park 'n ride RTA Red Line stations and then take the Red Line to Tower City. It's relatively hassle-free and will become ever more attractive if downtown is developed in such a manner as to eliminate the current relatively bargain-priced parking downtown.
Yes, much depends upon where you work downtown and the current day's weather.
If just visiting downtown or University Circle for fun, the Red Line would be very attractive from Euclid. E.g., buy a day pass, go to an Indians game, then stop at Little Italy for dinner (before or after the game) not having to worry about parking, all for the cost of a couple $5 day passes. There would be a big difference between getting to and parking at a Euclid station as opposed to Windermere.
Red Line rail rapids are a vast improvement over bus lines. I haven't ridden a 39 bus in years, but they used to be slow and so crowded that persons often were standing from western Euclid to downtown.
BTW, are you really surprised that low-wage workers in the U.S. are living hand-to-mouth?
Much does depend on downtown development so bargain priced parking is eliminated and people will use transit. But the scenario of riding in from the Euclid Red Line station to visit University Circle, then down to an Indians game and back to Little Italy for dinner sounds like a day in New York City. A congested, expensive to drive city where people use transit in huge numbers.
Much also depends on increasing downtown employment as well. Lots of conversions and people moving downtown but where are the new commercial office buildings?
Obviously people use Red Line stations; however, are your friends going to an event or daily commuting?
The Red Line stations lots are not nearly as full as the past.
The city needs to attract more transit using residents. Even the transit mecca of Portland hasn't seen much of an increase in its transit ridership despite the millennial demand for ''transit''.
Much does depend on downtown development so bargain priced parking is eliminated and people will use transit. But the scenario of riding in from the Euclid Red Line station to visit University Circle, then down to an Indians game and back to Little Italy for dinner sounds like a day in New York City. A congested, expensive to drive city where people use transit in huge numbers.
Much also depends on increasing downtown employment as well. Lots of conversions and people moving downtown but where are the new commercial office buildings?
Obviously people use Red Line stations; however, are your friends going to an event or daily commuting?
The Red Line stations lots are not nearly as full as the past.
The city needs to attract more transit using residents. Even the transit mecca of Portland hasn't seen much of an increase in its transit ridership despite the millennial demand for ''transit''.
There's also a heavy correlation between transit use and energy prices.
Low gasoline prices are muting transit demand, especially when combined with low parking prices compared to most large downtown districts in the U.S.
Most of my friends use RTA for leisure purposes.
The amount of job commuting into downtown has definitely decreased in recent decades, partially due to fewer jobs and partially due to many more living options downtown and in nearby neighborhoods. Of course, the latter should increase short-hop transit demand.
Low gasoline and natural gas prices also should by an ongoing windfall for RTA.
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